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View Poll Results: Will you continue playing on Stars after the VIP changes?
I will likely quit poker as a profession soon after. 51 13.42%
I plan to move most/all of my action to another site. 225 59.21%
Keep grinding it. More rake is better anyway. 104 27.37%
Voters: 380. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-11-2016, 07:29 AM   #176
coach999
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

gimme 28% rb for short term activity, gimme more % if I was losing money during that time. Then we have no problem stars. If you screw me over with a 888 reward system then I move to Partypoker or WPN...
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:31 AM   #177
Maximus122
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonicdahedgehog View Post
They only just changed/overhauled the VIP/rewards system for 2016 and there now going to completely change/overhaul it again for 2017?! Seems to me that, they didn't achieve there goals from the first overhaul so, are going to continue changing things until they get whatever the desired result is that there looking for. Wouldn't surprise me to see changes again in 2018 at this rate...
I think they're probably trying to totally phase out the VIP system.

10 years from now you'll probably get a first deposit bonus and then random promotions will run like Jacks or Bettor and that will be it.
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:33 AM   #178
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by Maximus122 View Post
I think they're probably trying to totally phase out the VIP system.

10 years from now you'll probably get a first deposit bonus and then random promotions will run like Jacks or Bettor and that will be it.
10 years is pretty optimistic. Then again, optimism is what's needed here.
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:02 AM   #179
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonicdahedgehog View Post
They only just changed/overhauled the VIP/rewards system for 2016 and there now going to completely change/overhaul it again for 2017?! Seems to me that, they didn't achieve there goals from the first overhaul so, are going to continue changing things until they get whatever the desired result is that there looking for. Wouldn't surprise me to see changes again in 2018 at this rate...
They will try to grab more and more money each year. The easiest way to do that is play around w vip program. Whoever thought latest changes would last for several years was/is delusional. This industry is dying and id assume they know that. Its probably not recoverable either. So wat they do is to try take as much as they can in teh final years
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:13 AM   #180
Maximus122
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by Avid Reader View Post
10 years is pretty optimistic. Then again, optimism is what's needed here.
Ya after posting I thought 10 was being a little optimistic alright Probably more like 4
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Old 09-11-2016, 01:54 PM   #181
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

They are deceitful and manipulate public perception. Pokerstars cannot be trusted anymore. This whole good for the ecosytem is bull****. They don't give a **** about the ecosystem, if they did ALL datamining, table scripts and any other tool that makes recs lose money or uncomfortable or at disadvantage would be eliminated. It's milking all players and lying to recs
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:13 PM   #182
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by hornykiss View Post
They are deceitful and manipulate public perception. Pokerstars cannot be trusted anymore. This whole good for the ecosytem is bull****. They don't give a **** about the ecosystem, if they did ALL datamining, table scripts and any other tool that makes recs lose money or uncomfortable or at disadvantage would be eliminated. It's milking all players and lying to recs
.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:45 PM   #183
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

I say strike.
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:22 PM   #184
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

This does not look good.

Only positive is that, regarding how incompetent they look in almost every respect these days, we might see some ev+ spots arising here and there, with the new system implemented.
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Old 09-12-2016, 02:29 AM   #185
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

10% max. rb for everyone incoming.
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Old 09-12-2016, 04:13 AM   #186
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

it might be a fun topic in ps hqs about what is and who introduced rakeBACK to online poker!?
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:28 AM   #187
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by raidalot View Post
I have no problem in principle with the 2 changes they've announced, i.e.:

(1) extending VIP program to casino/sportsbook
(2) basing rewards on more recent activity

(1) is fine as long as they don't seek to make activity in those other functions necessary to ensure decent poker rewards (i.e. use it to try to push poker players into those other activities). If I can simply carry on playing poker and not the other stuff without impact then I don't care.

(2) depends entirely on quantum. Lets see the numbers and compare with the current (already downgraded) system. Lets see if much of the "rakeback" continues to be in the form of crappy waste-of-time freerolls. Lets see if accumulated rewards are lost when players are inactive for a while. Lets compare the whole package when we see the details. In theory the new system could be better or worse than the current one (though we all know which way the odds lie on that one!)

I find it odd that the system will not be changed on Jan 1 but rather clumsily will be changed part-way through the year. They've had forever to think about and implement the changes.

Is that because people are now playing less because they're being screwed more?
the problem here is that they wont just simply `extend VIP to casino/sportsbook, and base rewards on current activity`. If that was the case, noone would have issue with it dooh.
Problem is they will find new ways of just reducing currently existing VIP values in 17, and then in 18+, probably close to removing supernova (making online poker even more expensive/less and less profitable).
That simple. And obv all the corresponding blablabla why its good for everyone (except for themselves).
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:54 AM   #188
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Sounds like 888's way of cancelling rakeback. You only get rakeback a couple of days per month if you don't play casino/sports.

I think recs get hung up on "rakeback pros" - slashing rakeback simply increases the cost of playing poker. I'm all for rewarding depositing players, forcing them into casino/sports simply hurts poker. Especially with how deceptive casino "bonuses" are, you'll have recs losing their whole deposit before getting to a poker table. Seems to contradict the aim of "making deposits last longer"!
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:56 AM   #189
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by lancelott_ View Post
the problem here is that they wont just simply `extend VIP to casino/sportsbook, and base rewards on current activity`.
As Pokerstars haven't yet released an official statement describing exactly what the changes will be and how it compares to the current system - this is all just speculation. Using conclusive wording such as "the problem here is they won't..." is misleading. It would have been better had you said something along the lines of "There is a plausible possibility that the new system may serve, most notably, as a reduction of the current VIP system."
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Old 09-12-2016, 05:59 AM   #190
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

It makes me sick when rereading this:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=29
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:02 AM   #191
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by Avid Reader View Post
As Pokerstars haven't yet released an official statement describing exactly what the changes will be and how it compares to the current system - this is all just speculation. Using conclusive wording such as "the problem here is they won't..." is misleading. It would have been better had you said something along the lines of "There is a plausible possibility that the new system may serve, most notably, as a reduction of the current VIP system."
Still not banned PocketDucks?
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:38 AM   #192
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
Still not banned PocketDucks?
Who's that?

I feel like we should take a moment to rewatch this video and recall why decisions were made to implement changes to the VIP system in the first place:



Since then, many of the points Lee Jones made have been shown to be true. Of course only Pokerstars have access to the masses of database containing statistical information about recent trends in the poker ecosystem. But nonetheless we can only assume that they have evidence to suggest the implemented changes have had a positive impact for the vast majority of players, improving the overall game experience. Player deposits are lasting longer, which along with other such trends indicate a healthier poker ecosystem, with long-term sustainability.

Taking the cream of the crop away from regulars and high volume players who are "almost without exception winning players" anyway, and re-distributing this to recreational players in the form of new rewards and bonuses to improve their experience, is a step in the right direction for the both the business and the entire ecosystem as a whole. Studies have shown that recreational players make up the vast majority of the player base so catering to these players is the number one goal of the site to ensure an overall positive experience for most players. Sucks for grinders, but these changes were absolutely necessary to ensure the future of both the business and the majority of players.

TL;DR: Regs/grinders are the MINORITY, recreational players are the MAJORITY
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Old 09-12-2016, 07:01 AM   #193
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

2 possible models for a rakeback system that would actually be good for the games:

1) Your rake back percentage (for 6-max) is your (VPIP-20)x5. If you are nitting it up and playing under 20 VPIP, you get no rakeback - if you play VPIP 30 then you get 50% rakeback all the way up to 100% rakeback for people VPIPing 40 or more. The equation is obviously adjusted as appropriate for full ring and other forms of poker.

2) Straight loss-back. If you're ahead you get nothing, if you are losing long-term you get your rake paid returned to you - maybe even double your rake so the money keeps going round in the games.

In both cases the rakeback isn't in the form of cash but of cash tickets, tournament tickets, T$ etc. to encourage the people who feed the games to keep playing.

Neither of the above will ever be implemented by PS though.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:28 AM   #194
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
2 possible models for a rakeback system that would actually be good for the games:

1) Your rake back percentage (for 6-max) is your (VPIP-20)x5. If you are nitting it up and playing under 20 VPIP, you get no rakeback - if you play VPIP 30 then you get 50% rakeback all the way up to 100% rakeback for people VPIPing 40 or more. The equation is obviously adjusted as appropriate for full ring and other forms of poker.

2) Straight loss-back. If you're ahead you get nothing, if you are losing long-term you get your rake paid returned to you - maybe even double your rake so the money keeps going round in the games.

In both cases the rakeback isn't in the form of cash but of cash tickets, tournament tickets, T$ etc. to encourage the people who feed the games to keep playing.

Neither of the above will ever be implemented by PS though.
Dont think, this is the solution. It should never be a solution to combine VPIP and rakeback, simply because fun players dont understand and dont know what VPIP means and there should be no incentive to teach them those things nor automatically implement something like a hud in the game, so they actually know what VPIP they play. Rather the future lays in getting rid of huds (that seems to be the common opinion for most and I agree).

Actually there should be two things IMO:
1) Straight money cashback for playing like 15-30% (as on full tilt years ago). I always remember my father (who is a fun player and overall losing player) liking it alot to get small pieces back for playing in direct money.
Another example from my father: he never knew, that on the old stars system he needed to "buy" stellar awards or cash prizes, so he actually gets a little bit back and he really felt bad about it in a way, when I told him. He felt cheated by stars because he just wanted to play a bit and not dealing with those stuff.
2) Another rakeback-step for playing every day (like the old ironman on tilt), so you have incentive to play hands every day, but not to play 10 hours a day.

That aside the typical things like banning seat-scripts, minimize bumhunting, banning huds / most software and yada yada
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:47 AM   #195
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avid Reader View Post
Who's that?

I feel like we should take a moment to rewatch this video and recall why decisions were made to implement changes to the VIP system in the first place:



Since then, many of the points Lee Jones made have been shown to be true. Of course only Pokerstars have access to the masses of database containing statistical information about recent trends in the poker ecosystem. But nonetheless we can only assume that they have evidence to suggest the implemented changes have had a positive impact for the vast majority of players, improving the overall game experience. Player deposits are lasting longer, which along with other such trends indicate a healthier poker ecosystem, with long-term sustainability.

Taking the cream of the crop away from regulars and high volume players who are "almost without exception winning players" anyway, and re-distributing this to recreational players in the form of new rewards and bonuses to improve their experience, is a step in the right direction for the both the business and the entire ecosystem as a whole. Studies have shown that recreational players make up the vast majority of the player base so catering to these players is the number one goal of the site to ensure an overall positive experience for most players. Sucks for grinders, but these changes were absolutely necessary to ensure the future of both the business and the majority of players.

TL;DR: Regs/grinders are the MINORITY, recreational players are the MAJORITY
Pokerstars explainations are full of BS and you are full of BS also.

You know why ?

Because a $1.5 turbo SNG on Pokerstars has the rake of 18c.
$1.5 = $1.32 + $0.18 fee

You know how much 0.18 represent for a 1.32 buyin?

(0.18/1.32)*100 =13.636 % FEE

So how the F they help the ecosystem by having a bigger rake at the smallest stakes ? HOW ?

More to this : this SNG turbo of $1.5 is the default SNG displayed in the Quick Seat lobby.

So, F off mister Avid Reader.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:50 AM   #196
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by Petre_AA View Post
Pokerstars explainations are full of BS and you are full of BS also.

You know why ?

Because a $1.5 turbo SNG on Pokerstars has the rake of 18c.
$1.5 = $1.32 + $0.18 fee

You know how much 0.18 represent for a 1.32 buyin?

(0.18/1.32)*100 =13.636 % FEE

So how the F they help the ecosystem by having a bigger rake at the smallest stakes ? HOW ?

More to this : this SNG turbo of $1.5 is the default SNG displayed in the Quick Seat lobby.

So, F off mister Avid Reader.
Best not to engage him, he's a known troll that's had loads of accounts banned on here. He derailed every stars thread for months under his "pocketducks" persona.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:17 AM   #197
Petre_AA
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Actually, I want him to answer my question.

So, Avid Reader,

How they help the ecosystem by having a bigger rake at the smallest stakes ?

I am an avid learner.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:22 AM   #198
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Quite pathetic, as is pretty much always the case with Amaya now.

The ugliest is probably that they should have waited and give proper notice to do so. Those of us who achieved Supernova this year were supposed to keep it through next year. That is what is advertised and although we do obviously not play for that, this is something we knew existed and was of interest in achieving it.

Now that we have it they are saying yeah but in fact we change it.
That would be okayish if players were given a full year notice, meaning people would know it in due time.

If they were to do it from 2018 it would be much more fair - albeit still ugly per se - as every player getting SN in 2017 would know about it. But the way they do it, players who achieved SN status in 2016 won't keep it for the period it was intended to last.

Completely deceitful.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:27 AM   #199
LektorAJ
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexuuus View Post
Dont think, this is the solution. It should never be a solution to combine VPIP and rakeback, simply because fun players dont understand and dont know what VPIP means and there should be no incentive to teach them those things nor automatically implement something like a hud in the game, so they actually know what VPIP they play.
Agreed, but they don't need to know how its calculated if they don't want to dig through the ToC - you just keep sending them tickets to keep them in the games.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:34 AM   #200
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Re: Pokerstars - Important changes to VIP reward for 2017

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Originally Posted by Petre_AA View Post
Actually, I want him to answer my question.
Why? He is not going to give a reasoned answer. He is trolling.
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