Amaya is down nearly 9% today, I guess a lot of people are making a lot of money based on your advice

I'm the one you talk about dear Camel, and recall all that conversation; all my plans are ****ed up.
here in Iran, there's no other option for a good online poker.

so here it comes out, deep from my heart : F**K YOU POKERSTARS.

IMHO this sudden withdrawal by Amaya from those countries has created loads of uncertainty in other grey market countries. Without providing a comprehensive explanation about why they withdrew from those grey market countries and just giving a standard boilerplate corporate reply, they've created a situation where every grey market player feels like their countries are going to be next. If I were a grey market recreational player now, I'd be very wary of re-depositing on any Amaya-owned company no matter how many deposit bonuses they threw at me.

I hope they'll clear this situation up with these players by sending a strong signal about whether they are going to remain in their respective markets. Hope some Stars rep is reading this, but not holding my breath

Can someone with a better understanding of the law then me explain to me why Canada is considered a "grey area"

Wouldn't it clearly be laid out in the criminal code and then the only question becomes what charges are laid? Kinda like a Murder is clearly illegal but is it Murder, 1, Murder, 2, or manslaughter?

Also wouldn't the CEO of Amaya make sure that if it was operating illegally in Canada it would take steps to ensure that it ceased operations before it took over as part of the deal seeing as how it is located in Canada, rather than risk the CEO going away in handcuffs?

Sorry that you can't play online, but I have to point out that Keith isn't a real Camel

It is clearly illegal for a Canadian firm to offer real money gambling except under the various state licences. The grey bit is when a foreign firm offers gambling remotely to Canadians - the doubt is the jurisdiction of the gambling, is it happening in Canada and so covered by the law.

If servers etc are in Canada that is more clearly illegal. The issue making the Amaya deal increase the risk of illegality is that the "controlling mind" is now Baazov as CEO and major shareholder of the Canadian listed firm, he is based in Canada. If the "controlling mind" of the operation is Canadian it is more likely that it is illegal.

There is very little case law on it but what there is suggests that the "controlling mind" is important.

Australia is clearer as they have a specific offence for foreign firms serving the Aus market without a licence.

Would you say Poland is as clearly illegal as Russia/Australia Richas? Hence these 3 countries - Poland/Russia/Australia MUST be removed under the terms of the new UK licence?

My assessment, for the little it is worth, is that Russia and Aus can't really have a sensible legal defence for continuing to be served by a UK licenced firm so they are toast. They are black not grey.

Poland is in the EU so it gets more complicated, whilst their laws are very anti those laws are likely in contradiction to their obligations under the EU treaties and so can be appealed to the European Court of Justice. That might just create enough wiggle room for Poland (and Sweden). It is also what makes Germany comparatively safe even though their laws are a total mess and they are trying to get an overly restrictive licencing policy of the ground.

Similarly for Romania that is trying to get its licencing up and running now.

One aside for Canadians - or anyone in a potential grey market. Well over a year ago BWIN.PARTY suspended accepting new players from a list of grey markets (Argentina, Armenia, Belarus, Brazil, Colombia, Croatia, Cyprus, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Slovenia and the Ukraine) but they let existing players continue. Last week Bet365 did the same for Romanians.

The UKGC guidelines are that any market worth 3% of revenues or any market targetted by the firm needs to have legal justification. If Canada or whichever grey market is below 3% of the revenues if the site stopped accepting new players from that country then they would not be asked for a legal justification by the UKGC. Not in the spirit of the law but they coul then quietly carry on serving their existing customers....sneaky, underhand and a bit of rule dodging really but in their return to the UKGC they could just say, revenues below 3%, not accepting any new players and then they don't need to offer a legal justification.

In practical terms that means that it makes sense for Canadians and other grey market players to make sure that they have live open accounts with any site about to be UK licenced NOW, in case there is a partial pull out with some exiting completely and others just stopping taking new customers.

Thanks Richas great post.

And it's a shame because you need minimum 2 Russians at the table to get a big spin n go prize pool.

So how is Canada a grey area then as Amaya is clearly not a foreign firm? it's located in Montreal.
And if it's as clear cut as Canadian Firm vs Foreign firm and where the jurisdiction lies, do you not think that Amaya would have all that sorted out beofre it was sold regarding something that could land its CEO etc in jail?

Not trying to sound augmentative, I just don't understand the logistics of it all

I tend to agree that Amaya is at risk re Canada. They would argue that the controling mind is in the Isle of Man, that it is unreasonable to treat them differently to a non Canadian firm when it is an entirely foreign based firm...I just don't buy it and to be honest I don't realy buy the foreign firms claim that the law does not apply to them either. I just don't believe that a Canadian clicking in Canada is not gambling in Canada. Trouble is there is no case law to show that so it is "grey".

Don't get me wrong, I want legal open online gambling I just don't see that the reluctance to prosecute and set the case law precedent means it is OK.

Amaya are hoping for the Canadian authorities to just go easy and not do anything, which is fine but now the UKGC wants a legal justification too and whilst specialist lawyers will happily bill to put a legal argument to say it is OK in a very complicated way it realy does not stack up in terms of common sense.

As I say, if you are Canadian, open accounts NOW with all the big sites that are getting UK licences, it is a cost free hedge in case they close to new Canadian players to skate the UKGC regulations and Amaya is forced out.

are u saying that pokerstars will definitely withdraw from Australia before the end of the year,what percentage would u say that is likely?

Definitely is a bit strong. I have a charity bet on it - I'd put it at about 90% likelihood. I've been wrong before if that's any consolation.

I think Pokerstars marketing slogans should be changed "off course for those who are affected by their decision of not providing real money games in their countries including myself"
Rather than " Pokerstars, find the poker star in you", it should be " Pokerstars, kill the poker star in you".

and rather than " Pokerstars, we are poker", it should be " pokerstars, we are not poker anymor only in your country of residence"

Good news for Indians:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/prom...wali-festival/

Now this makes sure we wont be banned in the near future

What?

So I asked pokerstars if they are going to pull out of Russia and Australia on 1st Nov, 2014 and for the first time in 3 years I haven't got any response from their support team

BTW, a post from PS Steve in 2011:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=183

Finally got a reply from them:

Hello Anuj,

Thank you for your email.

We are pleased to have announced the Rational Group’s acquisition by Amaya Gaming Group, the Montreal-based publicly traded gaming company. I can confirm that the Rational Group own and operate PokerStars and Full Tilt.

Rest assured these changes are at a corporate level, and nothing will change when it comes to our offering, player experience, or customer support – in fact, the likelihood is that future developments and progress will accelerate as a part of the Amaya Gaming Group. We can assure you that there are no changes to the way player funds will be held with us. Both now and following Rational Group’s acquisition by Amaya Gaming Group your funds are safe and they will always be accessible to you should you wish to withdraw funds.

Lastly, should there in the future be any change to the services we offer to residents in Australia, Canada, Russia, all players will be informed of this well in advance.

Should you need help with anything else, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards,

Lars
PokerStars Support Team

Lol

I wouldnt trust stars ever adhearing to a 'timeline' such as 'notify players well in advance'

theyre famous for missing deadlines and stalling things etc (like releases of tournament schedules etc)

They promised a new stars MTT schedule for months, gave dates on when it would be announced, then long after the due date they said they wont be making any significant changes

Theyre pretty horrid when it comes to getting info from inside the walls to people on 2p2, so hearing them say "well in advance" doesnt mean much, if they shut the doors on these countries on the 1st then if theres any notice at all, 'well in advance' would be something like 24 hours

Haha. Yeah they informed us players(From Bangladesh) way way ahead about the changes that they would not provide us services anymore. NOT~!!

My VIP Stellar reward was stuck at 85% of $10 at the time of banning my country. They have this policy of not paying out rewards below $10. So they basically said sorry and assured me that this percentage will remain intact and will be there for me to use should PS again decide to resume service in Bangladesh. But I told them(threatened them) that I would report PokerStars to every gambling body including the UIGEA or whatever and inform them how they stopped providing services without giving ample time in advance. They replied me instantly with an apology and then they processed my bonus of $8.50.

Now I am thinking to threat them again for the FPP, basically I have around 800 FPP and maybe I can squeeze $8 more out of them too )

Im waiting for their reply after I asked them why players in these countries were not given any prior notice. As far as I remember when William hill poker exited India , we were told 2 weeks ago about their plans to pull out of India. Also betfair did the same.

Hey Anuj
Why William Hill and Betfair exited India?