I don't think this is the case. A few years back a friend was planning on playing a full wsop schedule, picked up a card counting book at the airport, played a 1-hour session betting $25/hand normal and $100/hand when it was hot at rio, hardly big money and he was probably doing it terribly. Then he came back and within 15 minutes of his second session he was asked to leave and told he was banned from all Ceasars properties any games. He asked them about poker and was told he was banned from playing poker, but that he could apply to have his ban lifted in a year and it would likely be granted. Now obviously he admitted that he did some really dumb things and didn't do anything dumb like try to play under his middle name and just played non-Ceasars mtts and cash games, but the point is I don't think they ask you to stop, unless that's changed in the last few years.

^^^
There has to be a fact your friend is leaving out.

He reminds me of Martin Shkreli

[/QUOTE]

Sounds like your friend is likely leaving out some details. It's very hard to get axed from ALL Caesars properties from just counting. The only time I've ever seen people insta banned were caught past posting or pinching/capping, or outright unacceptable behavior, assault etc. Most casinos will tell you to play a different game or warn you but continue to allow you to play other games.

There must be more that you're leaving out of the story, I can hardly believe a Caesar's property is going to ban someone because they varied their bet sizes from a whopping $25 to an astronomical $100 a hand, LOL. That is kiddie table stakes relatively speaking, hard to believe they're banning someone for varying bet sizes at those stakes.

Lots of people saying there's more he's leaving out. Do any of you have examples of people who were caught counting who were allowed to continue playing poker? There's like 0 chance this guy is lying given that he literally was talking about how dumb he was and deserved it and he doesn't exaggerate/brag about anything. I agree having such a policy seems absurdly dumb, but does anyone actually have any examples of them having a better policy? idk why people would assume Ceasars would have an intelligent policy here.

I worked for more than one Caesars property for 6 years in table games and have been a firsthand witness to dozens of players who have been caught counting. Including the same property where this guy (the dude kicked out of the ME) was thrown out of. And as long as they didn't react in an insane manner, they were allowed to continue playing other games. So...yes.

hmm ok interesting. Like I said it's second hand, but this is the same guy who always flew super under the radar. I'd known him for a few months before looking up and finding out he was up close to half a million at msnl online on PTR with a 4ptbb winrate.

He is kinda awkward so maybe he rubbed the pit boss (or whoever makes these decisions in the pit) the wrong way? idk

It's definitely not about standard Caesars policy, because every casino has their own policy about card counters and it is 100% never a one-size-fits all policy. Remember card counting is not about breaking a rule, it's about playing by their rules to beat the game. Amateur card counters don't quite understand all the subtleties involved or the unspoken rules they should be following, and then they find themselves in situations that they can't control.

I personally am an example of someone who has been backed off at many Las Vegas properties for card counting, and I've continued to play poker for years with no issues (I probably know at least ten others who can say the same). The short answer is, you don't ask for permission to play poker, you just do it and if no one stops you then that means you're allowed. I guess if you're not sure then maybe don't use a rating card in the poker room and definitely don't play tournaments there for a while.

There have been a lot of questions itt about how card counters are treated and what "usually" happens when they're caught, but there is nothing "usual," about the inevitable experience of being made as a counter. It's like the answer to any poker question: it depends. There are different degrees of being "barred," "backed off" or "eighty-sixed," and whichever one you face on any particular day has to do with so many factors, such as your bet spread/$ wagered, time of day, manager on duty, location, whatever the floorman or surveillance director or whoever is calling the shots had for breakfast, etc.

Maybe your friend was a jerk, maybe he was talking loudly about how high the count was. Maybe he was just mistaken for someone else, or they thought he was with someone else. If they think they've identified you as part of a team, you're much more likely to get the full 86-ing, vs the soft, tap on the shoulder, please don't play blackjack anymore treatment. (I've personally seen an obvious whale wrongfully kicked off a blackjack table just because he was sitting next to a known card counter. The place happens to no longer be in business, maybe there's a connection?).

You can't ever predict exactly how or when it will happen, but if you play enough blackjack with an edge you know that you'll get barred at some point. That's why every competent card counter knows how to protect themselves and preserve their playing life for as long as possible. The first rule of card counting is (especially if you plan to return to play poker later or want to avoid being officially 86'd), don't use a rating card-with all your real info on it-at the blackjack table!! If they ask you to step away from the table, you step away and walk out the door. Do not show them your ID, do not sign anything, do not pose for a photo. Just leave.

They can tell you you're eighty-sixed all day but if they don't have your name, they can't fill out any official paperwork, so guess what? You're not eighty-sixed. "But the cameras! They have my picture!" Do you really think that same guy who makes maybe $15 an hour will be scouring the cameras for "that average-looking white dude in a baseball cap who tried to count cards" when you come back a few months later and go straight to the poker room? Nope. Not a chance. You're not that important.

Even if you do somehow get identified by name (which should only happen if you're playing big enough that you have to show ID at some point for CTR purposes), if you're polite and respectful it's highly possible that your barring could be limited to a single property rather than an entire network of casinos. But even if you are facing an actual ban (because you got greedy and just had to try and get those comps), if you wait long enough, even that will disappear eventually. Casinos are just businesses, and they're bought and sold all the time. They change their rating systems, their computer systems update and I'm sure there's even a statute of limitation for the Tresspass Act, which is the only legal way they can keep you from coming back. Whatever that statute of limitations is, it has to be a much shorter timespan than "forever." Right?

Which is why, even if I had been 86'd from all "Harrah's" properties over ten years ago (which I will neither confirm nor deny has ever happened), any record of such an incident would have been erased or become irrelevant immediately after Harrah's became CET. New company, new system means a clean slate for card counters. Technology moves fast, and that can be a very good thing sometimes.

I think you're missing the point here. There just seems to be a ridiculous level of inconsistency regarding these 86 bans. As I mentioned in a much earlier post, I know a few people who have technically been '86'd' from Caesars properties and they have all been treated differently. 1 guy was banned 10 years ago but still was able to play and get free night offers for years after. Then all of a sudden like 8 years later his players card gets canceled and his account is not active anymore and when he tried to get a new players card he was told he could not.

Another guy I know was 86'd and he did a variation of what this Stiers guy did by using his middle name as his first name. He says he uses his new players card without problem and has played in lots of events and they even swiped his license when his one on file has expired and there was no issue. And he cashed a couple for mid 5 figures.

And another guy I know was 86'd and tried to use variations of his name to sneak back in and they found out every time and immediately canceled his new players card. He gave up he told me and said it wasn't worth the headache.

And I know a big player from foxwoods that told me he got 86'd in 2010 and the police were called for threatening a blackjack dealer and throwing his chips at him after losing a lot of money. Within a few months he spoke to a higher up who rescinded the ban and let him back in. Obv because he is loaded and they want his business.

Bottom line is Caesars is a joke and there is no consistency or fairness with any of these 86 issues. Stiers cashed since his 'ban' a few times no issues. Now all of a sudden in a big buy in main event they want to act all indignant that he is playing and confiscate his buy-in and kick him out? The company is a joke.

Honestly, it sounds like he just got unlucky and chose the wrong pit at the wrong time (maybe they were on the lookout because they had just been hit by a team that day or something). But the Rio has always been known to be one of the more overzealous properties as far as jumping to the straight 86ing before trying the more gentle ask-to-leave route.

If he didn't use a rating card and/or didn't provide ID, there would be no way for them to enforce the ban, but it sounds like he did? Also, the trespass act is kind of like a traffic ticket, you have to sign something in order for them to legally prove it was you that they banned. Do you know if he signed anything? If not, then writing to them later to request that the ban be lifted is definitely an acknowledgement that you were, in fact, banned. I wouldn't recommend doing that, ever.

PS, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Just saying...

Not sure what point he's missing, as that's pretty much what he said.

Wait a minute. You mean to tell me that a multi-billion dollar corporation with hundreds of properties across the country, dozens of different brands and tens of thousands of employees doesn't treat every one of their customers exactly the same way regardless of the specific situation or circumstances involved? I am shocked! Shocked!

Next, I suppose you'll try and tell me that they're charging completely different rates for the same room at the same hotel on different days of the week. Or that my grandma who plays the penny slots will never earn the same level of comps as your charming friend who gets violent and throws things at the dealer sometimes? Oh, the outrage! We should definitely start a boycott.

Or, you can simply tell all your friends to read the book
I just wrote, "How to NOT get Eighty-Sixed from a Casino." I included a copy of the entire manuscript below, as a service to the community.

Chapter 1. Don't be an *******.

Chapter 2. If you're counting cards, stay anonymous/incognito. If you get eighty-sixed anyway, leave immediately and never sign anything. Then refer back to Chapter 1.

The End

Casinos are quite proficient at sharing info on players. If you're caught cheating in Vegas (even by surveillance after you leave), your picture and what cheating strategy is sent to every other surveillance room and pit in town.

If you apply for credit or go bad on money you owe to a casino, the info is shared and everyone knows.

Financial laws require casinos to "KYC" (know your customer) - who they are and how they get their money. Transactions over a few thousand dollars require paperwork to be filled out and your ID to be taken. If you present false ID, that's a crime.

It's very difficult to take a meaningful shot at a casino through advantage play. That's why situations like Phil Ivey's edge sorting are so absurd.

Anyone who thinks the players who were busted by Joe got cheated are complete idiots. And LOL at the one who said they should get their buyin back.

Me.

See my anecdote above at the Wynn. Afterward, I engaged in every other activity in that casino including placing at least two 5-figure bets at their Book that needed approval (which I note only to show they had no problem with me remaining on their property and knowingly using their services).

I was also once backed-off at Caesars (but in a less dramatic fashion so I did not include the anecdote) and received no ban of any kind that I was told about or enforced (Pit Boss just said, "You're done playing blackjack. You know why. Have a good night.") In my experience it takes more than what you describe to both identify yourself as a counter, get a response, and then get a response that involves being banned from the property.

Your friend is leaving something out.

Yea I can't believe a pit boss is going to use the card-counter hammer for someone betting a range of $25-$100 per hand. Plenty of people vary their bet sizes for other reasons than counting, especially a narrow range of $25-$100.

guy i watch on youtube got banned from all caesars properties for borrowing a friend's diamond card and eating in the lounge.

First of all, I was talking about card counting, which is not the same as cheating (cheating=actual crime you can get arrested for).

You talk about pictures being shared--that does happen, but definitely not every time or automatically whenever a card counter is identified, especially the small stakes solo players like the ones we are talking about here. And again, a photo is pretty useless without a name attached.

I won't get into all the ways to avoid showing ID at high stakes blackjack, but I can tell you from experience that it's not as impossible as you seem to think. But no one here was talking about "taking a meaningful shot" as a card counter. In my post I was specifically addressing these guys who are messing around with their newfound "counting" skills, spreading from $25 to a few hundred and somehow getting themselves 86'd across the country. That kind of thing doesn't need to happen and it won't happen if you know how to avoid it, but you're right--the guys who work for casino security are well trained and use lots of intimidation and fear tactics to make people think they are the law (they're not), that they have the right to detain you (they don't) or that you have to answer any questions or show them your ID so that they can flag you in their system as "undesirable."

If every casino is as good at keeping track of all their customers then all the pro card counters I know who've been playing for years wouldn't have anywhere left to play (they still do). Card counting is kind of like poker, you just have to identify your opponent's weakness and exploit it. Sometimes that weakness is "knowing their customer," or paying attention to ten games at once or keeping track of how much a player is varying their bets or how many chips they bought in for.

People in general are lazy and just want to go to work and do their jobs. Do you really think anyone wants to spend an extra hour or two filling out paperwork and filing reports and sharing info with other casinos every time they identify a low level wanna-be card counter? Definitely not.

^^^ so much right in these posts.....

also-never heard of anyone getting banned for spreading 1-4 units (as a matter of fact, once a little birdie told a "friend" that if they only spread 1-6 units they could play as long as they wanted, so most likely a detail or two was left out of the rio banning incident)

the wsop scammed 10k. At the end of the day money is money. ITs ok as a private business to refuse service to someone so they should give his money back and kick him out the door. To let him play then find out afterwards is their own fault. outrageous theft.

No one forced him to show up and spend his $10k on an entry... he KNEW he was going out of his way to deceive them and bypass a ban... if you're underage and get caught drinking at a bar do you get your money back?

If they don't take the money, someone else will.

Have you noticed how hotels in Las Vegas are allowed to advertise room rates and not honor them, ever? And they still have customers.

No.

makes me wonder if the butterfly effect of this ejection might have resulted in a totally different final table