The new ESPN 30 for 30 podcast has just been released, focussing on Phil Ivey.
I think this might justify a new thread outside of the original one as I'm sure this podcast will reach a massive audience of non poker fans.

Discuss...

Edit. Here's a link.

http://m.espn.com/general/cast?id=19472136&src=desktop

The more I hear about this case, the more i don't think Ivey did anything wrong. Casinos really just got played and decided they could buy the courts off.

Just finished listening to it. It's more about Kelly than Phil.
The story of how she became an advantage player is so interesting.
This is the first time I've heard edge sorting described in such a simple way.

This will make a great movie and I want to watch it tomorrow.

Thanks listening now. I thought from the jump that he did nothing wrong EXCEPT the fact that he asked for certain asian dealers so his partner could talk to them in mandarin (?). That's the only sketchy part.

And the casino agreed to that too.

for some reason I think I read that Kelly has been sued twice in the past by casinos for edge sorting and won both cases

I would like to know more about her or even just the culture of the super wealthy Chinese when it comes to their children. They just kinda glossed over and acted like it wasn't nuts that her father was supporting her losing 10 million dollars gambling in Vegas.

Casino gave them an edge and they lost, gg they still could have won.
In this case the Casino was gambling vs Ivey that had the edge.

I'm guessing Ivey's operation was a freeroll, and that he's still way ahead after giving back all of his winnings.

This is my issue with some of the judgments - Ivey's partner could not discern all the cards at all, it wasn't inevitable that they would win any given session. Like you say, the edge tilted in their favour.

Also I don't think Ivey is ahead in all this. If he loses in the US and UK the legal fees will be astronomical. Also casinos are even looking for the financial value of the rooms and bottles that they comped!

Biggest problem for Ivey imo are those instructions they gave to the dealer to move the cards so they could see the markings better. They're effectively using the dealer as an agent to gain an ingame advantage, as opposed to using defects/edges in the game itself.

the cards were already defected right?

nothing wrong with asking to see something more clearly

and the casino was complicit in it. They thought they were going to come out on top.

The casino allowed it . Now we can clearly see it was a free roll as iveys losses were losses and wins along with comps are being disputed in courts . Hops he wins

I'm only forwarding on some of the legal arguments put forth by judges/counsel. I think it could be a deciding factor.

yes cards already "defected" because casino was doing a lousy job.
They never touched the cards

These defects are quite common, just slight irregularity's along the edges so that the left edge is not the same as the right edge.
A common trick exploited my magicians to put the significant card back in the deck at 180 degrees so that it stands out between the rest of the cards.

The casino staff should have known what was going on, and that they could track cards this way. Normally decks get swapped regularly so its never a big issue, but here they played with same deck for hours.

Its so obvious its not weird to think the casino freerolled ivey, and knew what was up so they just still let him gamble his edge, If he wins we don't pay anyway

Yea - also edge sorting sounds really difficult - think they would notice someone staring at cards trying to look for a pattern. Of course that and making strange requests.... possible the casinos just knew they were freerolling. Gentings even gave Ivey a receipt for his winnings and just refused to honor it.

As a poker pro and advantage player living in Vegas I can tell you unequivocally that all Ivey did was ask for the casino to do certain things.

Yeah you are not going to tell me a whale is playing for 150k a hand and they don't have 3-4 ppl looking closely at the table to see if everything is legit. Ofc they had.



You have to have a somewhat trained eye to spot this stuff



On some card backs its easier to spot, that's why they also changed decks until they found one that was good to use. Ofc the casino staff must be aware of this manufacturing tolerance in the cards that can be exploited.

Nevertheless the casino granted big big request.
1. Have them switch decks until they found one they liked.
2. Keep that deck for the rest of play.
3. Have the dealer rotate some cards.

I mean com'on, they free rolled him big time. Interesting to see what the court has to say.

Ivey's biggest mistake was doing this in AC where all the judges and politicians are corrupt.

Where aren't they and also has casinos?

We've been over this in tiresome fashion in an earlier thread. Edge sorting as implemented here manipulates the game into a game the casino did not agree to play.

Moving on though:

This podcast is interesting inasmuch as it gives a little insight into the woman who was the brains behind the operation and her ability to fly under the radar. I'm sure many of us would love to learn more about her, her story, and her achievements in being an advantage player because that stuff is truly fascinating. I'm frankly much more interested in her life story than Phil's.

+1. I tried to edit my OP to reflect pretty much this, but I was too late.

would love to hear more about Queen of Sorts Triad connections

One of the Wynn high stakes regs claims the girl is his sister...

so ivey put up the stake and kelly got a % of the profit? what was her %?