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Old 04-08-2017, 02:04 AM   #1301
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

That is already in progress. Another DP thread was started today and instantly merged into the main video thread. I am all for continuing to do that with any new DP threads.

The existing threads have too many replies to make any sense of if merged.
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:03 AM   #1302
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
That is already in progress. Another DP thread was started today and instantly merged into the main video thread. I am all for continuing to do that with any new DP threads.

The existing threads have too many replies to make any sense of if merged.
The following two threads could be merged, they're about the same story and are both on the front page of NVG -

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...00-me-1206724/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...tyler-1661197/
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:53 AM   #1303
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
That is already in progress. Another DP thread was started today and instantly merged into the main video thread. I am all for continuing to do that with any new DP threads.

The existing threads have too many replies to make any sense of if merged.
Agree.

One DP/youtube thread is plenty. I closed the latest one that had less than 30 posts and linked to the main thread.
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Old 04-08-2017, 03:56 AM   #1304
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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The following two threads could be merged, they're about the same story and are both on the front page of NVG -

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...00-me-1206724/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...tyler-1661197/
Locked the one thread but kept the original Booth thread intact as it has been around for a long time.

Polk's stuff is going to stay contained where possible.
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Old 04-09-2017, 01:24 AM   #1305
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Many years ago when online poker started and many of us discovered 2+2 there was a shared idea that poker would be something we did for the rest of our lives and that our reputations would stick with us and matter.

With that in mind, 2+2 seemed like a great, transparent place to police people and seek justice.

Very little about the poker world turned out as expected (and the unimportance of ethics was one of the more surprising aspects) but it's cool to see all these years later that sometimes 2+2 is able to serve as an effective judge and jury. Well done to Bobo Fett and everyone else involved in helping that Klang dude get paid back.
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Old 04-09-2017, 02:11 PM   #1306
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Would like to congratulate Bobo for his handling of the Zima/Klang debacle. With such a complex issue involving multiple parties and large amounts of money it's nearly impossible to work everything out to everyone's satisfaction. The balance between transparency and actually getting a resolution done probably wasn't an easy task to decide, but I think Bobo found the right balance. Well done sir.
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:27 PM   #1307
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Would like to congratulate Bobo for his handling of the Zima/Klang debacle. With such a complex issue involving multiple parties and large amounts of money it's nearly impossible to work everything out to everyone's satisfaction. The balance between transparency and actually getting a resolution done probably wasn't an easy task to decide, but I think Bobo found the right balance. Well done sir.
Well said and I completely agree.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:13 PM   #1308
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Hi guys, I just wanted to register my concern that the detailed events of the Zima/Klang debacle have been effectively purged.

In my opinion the historical record of how events transpired, who spoke up & when, and what actions they took along the way is very important to the community as a whole, and not just the fact that the dispute was settled. Scammers or parties in a dispute may decide their best strategy is to stonewall as long as possible, knowing that information damaging to their reputations will be 'cleaned up' after the fact even if they are ultimately forced to concede. This reduces the leverage of 'going public' and increases the probability more people will be taken advantage of in the future. The length of time that passed before resolution as well as the detail of the various allegations and evidence that came out are critical in forming an opinion about what actually happened between the parties.

I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not attacking anyone, I'm sure you've given your actions a lot of thought. But if I were going to enter into financial dealings with any of the parties involved I would very much like to have access to the public posts they made (and see who didn't speak up) along the way. Reading it now as 'dispute between parties, mistakes made, now resolved to satisfaction of all' underplays the reality of what happened. I for one would like to form my own opinion from the public posts on record, all of which are now gone.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:29 AM   #1309
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Hi guys, I just wanted to register my concern that the detailed events of the Zima/Klang debacle have been effectively purged.

In my opinion the historical record of how events transpired, who spoke up & when, and what actions they took along the way is very important to the community as a whole, and not just the fact that the dispute was settled. Scammers or parties in a dispute may decide their best strategy is to stonewall as long as possible, knowing that information damaging to their reputations will be 'cleaned up' after the fact even if they are ultimately forced to concede. This reduces the leverage of 'going public' and increases the probability more people will be taken advantage of in the future. The length of time that passed before resolution as well as the detail of the various allegations and evidence that came out are critical in forming an opinion about what actually happened between the parties.

I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not attacking anyone, I'm sure you've given your actions a lot of thought. But if I were going to enter into financial dealings with any of the parties involved I would very much like to have access to the public posts they made (and see who didn't speak up) along the way. Reading it now as 'dispute between parties, mistakes made, now resolved to satisfaction of all' underplays the reality of what happened. I for one would like to form my own opinion from the public posts on record, all of which are now gone.
I agree with this... but it's likely Zima wouldn't pay unless his demands were met. Removing a lot of the info from public view sucks for the next person Paul Dlugozima attempts to scam/steal from - but given the amount of money involved I think the mods made the right choice in this case.
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:09 PM   #1310
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Hey just wanted to thank Bobo, R*R and the rest of the guys that were able to help me out and put up with my non-stop PMs and bull****. appreciate all of the help and hardwork, beers on me if you're ever in Florida.
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:40 PM   #1311
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Hey just wanted to thank Bobo, R*R and the rest of the guys that were able to help me out and put up with my non-stop PMs and bull****. appreciate all of the help and hardwork, beers on me if you're ever in Florida.
Sounds good! Beers with Yayo on the jukebox.
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:29 PM   #1312
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

think was handled okay since obviously zima held the editing of the post over punts head to get paid. Would have been better to leave comments in but getting the person scammed paid should be the priority. Just hoping the forums dont allow trading in threads or marketplace approval for someone who could use these boards to potentially harm or scam others.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:10 AM   #1313
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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think was handled okay since obviously zima held the editing of the post over punts head to get paid. Would have been better to leave comments in but getting the person scammed paid should be the priority. Just hoping the forums dont allow trading in threads or marketplace approval for someone who could use these boards to potentially harm or scam others.
If your assumptions are right that makes it worse. People are encouraged not to come clean or engage in discussion about their questionable behaviour and instead blackmail the victim until they agree to sweep it under the rug and they can move on to the next mark.

I would like to know if there was at least thorough discussion about this among mods and management before the decision was taken. From the lack of discussion here it feels like this thread is where concerns are sent to die.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:11 AM   #1314
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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I would like to know if there was at least thorough discussion about this among mods and management before the decision was taken.
There was.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:34 AM   #1315
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

Oh good. Case closed. Glad I took the time to engage.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:55 AM   #1316
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
In my opinion the historical record of how events transpired, who spoke up & when, and what actions they took along the way is very important to the community as a whole, and not just the fact that the dispute was settled.
It can be, depending on the content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Scammers or parties in a dispute may decide their best strategy is to stonewall as long as possible, knowing that information damaging to their reputations will be 'cleaned up' after the fact even if they are ultimately forced to concede. This reduces the leverage of 'going public' and increases the probability more people will be taken advantage of in the future.
If the thread had been outright deleted, I'd be more inclined to agree with this. In this case, I'm pretty sure the amount of damage done to Zima's reputation is far greater than the clean-up it got at the end.

Also, look at the flip side. It's very possible people would be more reluctant to post threads like that one if they believed that there would be absolutely no chance of anything being edited out afterwards, in case that became a sticking point to them being repaid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of people refusing to repay unless something is edited/deleted - if you owe money, pay it. I'm also not a fan of people who create threads simply for the purposes of getting paid, and then would happily have us delete everything to get their money, without a care of whether the community is warned or not (speaking in general terms here, not specifically about this situation). But I'm willing to be flexible when I think it makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
The length of time that passed before resolution as well as the detail of the various allegations and evidence that came out are critical in forming an opinion about what actually happened between the parties.
I think the length of time is still clear, and I believe all of the important allegations and evidence are still there.

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Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not attacking anyone, I'm sure you've given your actions a lot of thought.
Appreciated, and not taken as an attack at all.

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Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
But if I were going to enter into financial dealings with any of the parties involved I would very much like to have access to the public posts they made (and see who didn't speak up) along the way.
Admittedly this is one piece that was lost - the fact that Zima never responded in the thread. I don't think it's a *huge* deal, but I understand that some people would feel differently, and if I went back and did it again perhaps I'd make sure it was mentioned in the summary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
Reading it now as 'dispute between parties, mistakes made, now resolved to satisfaction of all' underplays the reality of what happened.
I also think that summary heavily underplays the way that OP reads now. It's pretty clear in that OP that this was more than just "mistakes made".

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I for one would like to form my own opinion from the public posts on record, all of which are now gone.
Fair enough. Most of it was the usual NVG banter, but of course hearing a lot of opinions and from people that may know one party or the other, or have a unique perspective, has some value. Even if there wasn't any new allegations posted (and I don't believe there was), there's no question that page after page of people coming down on the group wasn't good for them, and removing it was.

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I agree with this... but it's likely Zima wouldn't pay unless his demands were met.
This is perhaps a bit too simplistic. Zima and Marc discussed this, and came to an agreement of what should be removed. Some of it because it was exaggerated/inaccurate, some for legal reasons, and of course some of it because it was in Zima's best interest. They came to me with their agreement, and not all of it was accepted - they needed to compromise with me as well, as I thought some of their edits went a bit too far. So his "demands" weren't fully met, but at the same time, I'm not saying he would have paid if we refused to edit/delete anything, so there's certainly a great deal of merit to your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipuntstacks View Post
Hey just wanted to thank Bobo, R*R and the rest of the guys that were able to help me out and put up with my non-stop PMs and bull****. appreciate all of the help and hardwork, beers on me if you're ever in Florida.
You're welcome - glad it all got resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
If your assumptions are right that makes it worse. People are encouraged not to come clean or engage in discussion about their questionable behaviour and instead blackmail the victim until they agree to sweep it under the rug and they can move on to the next mark.
Unquestionably a big concern, which is why, in my mind, outright deletion was never on the table.

This kind of thing has happened numerous times, and most people don't hear about it because it's a scam for a few hundred or a few thousand, and not posted here in NVG (because this isn't where these sort of threads normally belong) - scammers say they refuse to pay unless everything is deleted. Such requests are usually denied. Some editing is often acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
I would like to know if there was at least thorough discussion about this among mods and management before the decision was taken.
Absolutely, yes.

But I want to be clear that the ultimate decision was mine. Not because I'm looking for credit for making this happen, because as far as I'm concerned they came to an agreement that I merely facilitated, but because I don't want anyone who thinks this was a terrible decision to put it on the moderators as a group. I asked for feedback, but I didn't seek consensus or put this to a vote. I'm confident that a number of moderators wouldn't have gone for this if it was their decision, but I also didn't get anyone saying this was a decision they couldn't accept, and I don't think anyone's afraid to tell me they think I'm ****ing up if they believe I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnMyBike View Post
From the lack of discussion here it feels like this thread is where concerns are sent to die.
No, not at all. I saw some opinions had been posted, but didn't get the impression that anyone was necessarily seeking a reply until now.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:14 AM   #1317
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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Agree.

One DP/youtube thread is plenty. I closed the latest one that had less than 30 posts and linked to the main thread.
There's 4 Doug Polk threads on the front page just now...

He's not going to stop encouraging people to make threads, it's his whole business plan. Maybe time for "NVG - sponsored by Doug Polk"? At least get something out of it.
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:00 PM   #1318
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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There's 4 Doug Polk threads on the front page just now...

He's not going to stop encouraging people to make threads, it's his whole business plan. Maybe time for "NVG - sponsored by Doug Polk"? At least get something out of it.
I don't think that really tells the full story. Two of those threads are HTK/Polk threads; one has basically been an HTK containment thread for quite some time now, and the other is barely active and has dropped off the first page again (likely since you posted). I could see making an argument for locking that one.

The PokerNews thread was actually deleted originally, and Mason decided to restore it. The OP of that one was clearly looking to make Polk look bad - of course since then, I see it's become something of a Polk cheerleading thread.

So yeah, there's a fair bit of Polkage on the front page, but I don't think it's quite the problem you're making it out to be.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:27 PM   #1319
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

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... and the other is barely active and has dropped off the first page again (likely since you posted). I could see making an argument for locking that one.
Good point.

I have locked it as it is essentially a second yet less relevant HTK/Polk thread.
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:11 PM   #1320
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Re: ****OFFICIAL NVG MODERATION DISCUSSION THREAD****

@Bobo thanks for the thoughtful reply, I appreciate you sharing your rationale. While I don't completely agree on all points, it's clear there's no perfect solution and you've tried to find a good balance.
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