Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > General Poker Discussion > News, Views, and Gossip

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2011, 06:32 PM   #16
old hand
 
illdonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,380
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

I agree that Craig was obviously wrong about Binion not mentioning Moss at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Hughes View Post
Craig said high stakes poker from that era was not mentioned in Binion's oral history. The quote above is about Nick the Greek losing $550,000 at poker. That is high stakes.
Quote exactly where Craig wrote this. I reprinted the excerpt you refer to, and it doesn't say that Binion never mentions poker. Craig wrote that Binion never mentions a game between Moss and Dandalos, or a poker game that had huge publicity and inspired the WSoP. That was the legend for decades.

Also, it doesn't matter what you saw Nick the Greek do. Craig was directly quoting the Review Journal article with regards to "Aristotle of the Pass Line." Acting like you caught somebody in an error when they're directly quoting a newspaper doesn't count as a win.

Also, again, none of this has to do what what supposedly is your main issue: evidence that the legendary " "Mr. Moss, I have to let you go" game that supposedly inspired the World Series of Poker ever happened. It would be great if you did. Fine, it wasn't in the newspapers. Don't you find it odd that nobody but Johnny Moss ever mentioned this huge game that was supposedly witnessed by hundreds of spectators over five months, and even Moss apparently never mentioned it for decades?

As for your claims that everybody involved wanted to keep things quiet, and didn't want word of it getting out to the IRS, that seems odd in connection with Alvarez's description: "Benny had thoughtfully positioned [the game] near the entrance to the casino, was surrounded by crowds six deep." Doesn't really sound like a man frightened by word getting out.

And I'm still curious why you cut off Binion's Johnny Moss memories at the point where they started to imply that Moss wasn't doing that well in his final years.

Last edited by illdonk; 08-19-2011 at 06:45 PM.
illdonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 07:18 PM   #17
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Éire
Posts: 1,475
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Diamonds View Post
You can be fun to read, Mr Hughes, but when it comes to providing evidence, you need a bit of a refresher course. Not asking for Subject:Poker-type citations, but "It's true, I seen it" ain't really good enough, either.
Yeah he should citate the dozens of academic articles written about the game Good stuff Mr Hughes I`ll have to buy that book
Dave47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 07:35 PM   #18
old hand
 
Al Capwne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ELLAY
Posts: 1,427
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Great read but Who are those critics? I really don't know... a little background? Link?
Al Capwne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 08:50 PM   #19
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

The Binion oral history was in 1973, when Johnny Moss was slowing down from age, but he still won several bracelets. When I write something, I do a literature review, finding everything I can about someone like Nick the Greek. In countless written accounts, he is always refered to as "the Aristotle of the Don't Pass Line." I do not think he was called something else by the Las Vegas newspaper. Hank Greenspun wrote the eulogy, the newspaper articles, and the spurious 1954 Collier's article. Craig could not have read the Collier's article, the Greenspun eulogy, or Cy Rice's biography of Nick the Greek because HE MISQUOTES ALL THREE AND COUNTLESS OTHER ARTICLES. Craig was shooting from the hip basing his ideas on what WAS NOT IN BINION'S ORAL HISTORY, NOT IN THE LAS VEGAS NEWSPAPERS, NOT IN NICK THE GREEK'S BIO, and he was dead wrong about all of them.
A quick search turns up these:
The Rise Of The Biggest Little City: An Encyclopedic History Of ...
Dwayne Kling, Rollan Melton - 2010 - 256 pages
Dandolos, a philosophical man known to some as the "Aristotle of the don't-pass
line," was probably the highest-rolling professional gambler in American history
. He was suave and soft-spoken, and in the gaming world he will always be ...
books.google.com

Collier's
1954 by Hank Greenspun who wrote the eulogy and delivered it and put it in his newspaper.

While everybody else is reading the Racing Form, Nick the Greek reads Plato's Dialogues and the works of Aristotle — a practice that has caused him to be called the "Aristotle ol the don't-pass line." Basically, Nick the Greek is a kind ...
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 09:54 PM   #20
old hand
 
illdonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,380
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Misquoting like claiming Craig wrote that Binion never mentions poker in his oral history?

Once again: Don't you find it odd that nobody but Johnny Moss ever mentioned this legendary game that was supposedly witnessed by hundreds, if not thousands of people over five months? Not Binion, Nick the Greek, or even some tourist hanging around downtown? Or that nobody heard about this game until the 1970s?

Last edited by illdonk; 08-19-2011 at 10:03 PM.
illdonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 10:20 PM   #21
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Binion's Horseshoe put out the story of the big match in its brochures and press for the World Series. The World Series didn't start until 1970. Benny and Jack Binion approved the adds, press, and story.

According to Michael Craig, Johnny Moss DID NOT WIN his first three bracelets, because he was "banned from Las Vegas for two decades" and could not have been there. Moss was really slowing down from age at the time of and after Benny Binion's brief, colorul oral history. He only won 9 braclets, the last when he was 81. The World Series winnings were chicken feed to to Johnny Moss or any of the biggest gamblers in the early times. Most of the Poker Hall of Famers played in the much bigger game, the biggest cash game of all time, hosted by Johnny Moss at the Sid Wyman-controlled Dunes at this time. Poker Hall of Famers attracted by Moss' game included Doyle Brunson, Sarge Ferris, Johnny Moss, Sid Wyman, Crandell Addington, Joe Bernstein, Red Winn, Puggy Pearson, and Corky McCorquandale. Nick the Greek may have played stake money but he was broke, old, and died shortly thereafter. Benny wrote in his oral history about a broke Nick the Greek eating free around town, and being comped a small room.

Cy Rice, the Greek's biographer, was with Nick the Greek his last year and listened to his stories. He believed and do I that Nick the Greek was broke after 1949, got broke that year, and could not have played the match in 1951. The Greek owed money all over town. In the 1954 Collier's article written by Hank Greenspun, the man who wrote his eulogy, the only interview the Greek did at that time, it made it sound like you could make money shooting dice in Las Vegas going with the don't pass and betting along with Nick the Greek, and the house. Sid Wyman was quoted a lot.

One odd thing in Hank Greenspun's eulogy might have been an inside joke! He mentioned the Greek shooting a dice game with Gus Greenbaum for $10,000 a roll. According to Doyle, it was Gus Greenbaum that caught Johnny Moss cheating leading to his temporary exile. Gus Greenbaum was murdered in Phoenix by Marshall Califano, the Mafia enforcer that was Nick the Greek's pal and tried to get Ray Ryan to return money to the Greek. Nick the Greek and Califano tried to kidnap Ray Ryan and were caught. The Greek testified against him as did Ryan. Nick the Greek was from Chicago and under the protection of Al Capone earlier. He went to Tony Acardo to complain of the Ryan cheating in 1949, and Califano was asked to get the money back. NONE OF THIS WAS EVER IN THE LAS VEGAS NEWSPAPER OR IN THE EULOGY OR THE COLLIER'S ARTICLE.

In the eulogy, Binion, Gates, and Greenbaum were the only ones mentioned. Not mentioned in the eulogy or the Collier's article were the Greek's hoodlum pals: Arnold Rothstein, Al Capone, Marshall Califano, Dutch Shultz, Lucky Luciano, and Tony Accardo. It didnt say he traveled cheating with Titanic Thompson. It didn't say a lot of things. Making any arguement on what it did not say is rather child-like. Saying Benny Binion did not back Moss's story of Nick the Greek is just dead wrong since all the casino publicity coming out while Benny was alive re-told the old story. Jack Binion and Doyle Brunson believed it. A couple of guys doubt it to build up their own selves but their arguments are child-like.

Last edited by Johnny Hughes; 08-19-2011 at 10:32 PM.
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 10:40 PM   #22
old hand
 
illdonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,380
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Cooperstown told the story of Abner Doubleday inventing baseball for years. It was a good story, but that doesn't mean it happened. And in his oral histories, when they asked him about the WSoP, Benny Binion said the idea for it originated at the 1969 Texas Gamblers Reunion.

To be clear: yes, many things that happened weren't in the newspaper. However, you seem to think this means the fact that something isn't in the newspaper is proof that it happened. That's not what evidence means.

You believe Johnny Moss because you met him, and that was apparently a huge deal for you. That's nice, but it doesn't mean the rest of us need to believe all of his stories.
illdonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 11:09 PM   #23
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 3,934
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Sports Illustrated - January 25, 1971

It Ain't Just All Heaven, Gambling. There's A Lot You Got To Contend With--John Hardie Moss, World's Best Poker Player

Edwin Shrake
Johnny Moss had been playing in high games for years when Benny Binion called him and said, "They got a fellow out here that thinks he can play stud poker." Moss packed and headed for Las Vegas for his confrontation with Nick the Greek—a classic session. "I wasn't the best stud player in the world no way, but I could play good stud, you know, and I figured I'd better do it," Moss says. "We got at it, and there was hundreds of people sweating the game; people everywhere, and the table was full of checks."

Wise Hand Poker 04-16-08

Jack Binion Interview
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 11:27 PM   #24
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder also confirmed the story and said he was there. I wonder. Snyder worked the press for Binion's during the early World Series and that story of the big match was repeated.

I think there was a mixup between Moss, who could not read, and his biographer. Moss said the match took place in 1949. The biographer threw in Binion's Horseshoe. Maybe Moss said "Binion's" meaning Benny's place. Bud Shrake, one of my favorite Texas writers probably got it wrong when fact checking and he found there was no Binion's Horseshoe until way after 1949. He thought Moss got the year wrong. Shrake writing in Sports Illustrated didn't mention Moss had been elected Poker Champ by a vote of his peers. His story was about the big, big game at the Dunes. He, Sid Wyman. Doyle Brunson, and everyone else agreed Moss was the greatest in his day which lasted a long time.
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 11:38 PM   #25
old hand
 
illdonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,380
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Hughes View Post
In 1949, Benny Binion was under a lot of legal pressure and facing extradition to Texas. He and Johnny Moss had troubles with and were being investigated by the Internal Revenue Service. They would not announce their big winning to the newspapers and the I.R.S.
http://espn.go.com/eoe/wsop/history.html

"Binion agreed to set up a match between Dandolos and the legendary Johnny Moss, with the stipulation that the game would be played in public view." ... "[Binion] noted that the public had gathered outside the casino each day to watch the game with the fervor of dedicated sports fans, and he was amazed at the attention the event had attracted.

Sounds like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?
illdonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2011, 12:40 AM   #26
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 233
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Hi Johnny.....your old buddy Vegasskip here. I thought we all cleared the air on this issue and came to an agreement in the previous thread. Over the years I have learned alot from your posts and I hope you have learned alot from my responses to them. And along the way I hope that our debates are sparked an interest in poker history among other readers.But please let's change the subject and attacks and go on to something else. How about some stories on Paul Harvey and his casino in Midland/Odessa. I'm sure we could come up with a great debate on that and keep it educational. No more Moss/Greek fights!
vegasskip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #27
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Heart Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

I knew Paul Harvey, and played in the poker game with he, Doc Ramsey, and Johnny Moss at Pinkie Roden's Inn of the West in Odessa. I was in Harvey's house but not when it was a casino. He was a huge gambler, book maker. He and Moss once played heads up five days. McManus says wrongly that Pinkie was from my home town of Lubbock when he was from Odessa. Pinkie had been a bootlegger and owned a chain of liquor stores. When I was there, Pinkie didn't play in the poker game, but he came. We played Hold 'em, Seven-Five low ball, gin rummy. I got broke. I traveled down there with Bill Smith, main event champ of 1985 and James "Tennesee Longgoodie" Roy and my partner. They all lost. I guess Pinkie and Harvey were the big suckers. Harvey took advantage of a Texas law that allowed gambling in your home. It had double entry doors, men's and women's rest rooms. Benny Binion loaned Harvey money and had a piece of the joint. Benny also owned parts of two fabulous casinos, Top of the Hill in Arlington and the Four Deuces in Ft. Worth. I think and am not sure that Harvey testified before some Texas gambling commission and Benny was mad at him. At Top of the Hill, customers included some of the world's richest men: Howard Hughes, H.L Hunt, and Sid Riohardson. Benny said Howard Hughes didn't lose much. This place was on several acres and had an armed guard on horseback with a rifle. It was a real carpet joint, fancy, dinner on fancy dishes, crystal. Much fancier than what Benny found in Las Vegas. The owner invested hugely in horses, and horse racing. I DO NOT KNOW if Benny got a piece of these joints because of muscle, but I guess so.

Jim McManus and countless others say Benny put $2 million in the trunk and fled to Las Vegas with all his legal troubles. Benny had tens of millions, five policy wheels, the numbers racket, and controlled all the dice games in downtown Dallas, because he paid off the laws and the joints gave him 25 per cent of the profits, approximately. He upped the take on Cat Noble and started their blood feud. My mentor, Curly Cavitt, was good, close friends of them both. He was fading with the Cat, and they'd cut up the bankroll every night because the Cat might get killed.

When Benny got to Las Vegas, it was a town of 18,000 people. Bugsy Siegal had a party at the swimming pool of the Flamingo and invited everyone to bring their families and kids. Bugsy say a guy he didn't like that had badmouthed the Flamingo. He chased him around the swimming pool, pistol whipping him in front of his wife and kids. None of this was in the Las Vegas newspapers.

Benny had taken his family to see the U.S. Mint and all the money. He saw all the crowds, and got the idea to 1. have a big match in public showing the money and 2. to display $1,0o00,000 in ten thousand dollar bills. I THINK, HEARD FROM CURLY, BUT AM NOT SURE, that the million was a challenge to the Mafia and anyone else to try to steal it.

Vegasskip, you are knowledgeable, but I will write about what I want to.

Ted Binion has said Benny lost $400,000 playing poker right after he first got to Las Vegas. I think the long ring game and match with the Greek was mostly for the money. He was backing Moss, Moss got off winner. Binion was a showman, and not secretive like nearly all other gamblers of the era. He liked fame in Dallas. At one of his dice joints in Ft. Worth, over a Mexican Food Restaurant, they had a pet burro, donkey. They'd take it to downtown Ft. Worth and let it out with a sign on its side, and it would walk home, like a homing pigeon. Benny was a huge dice fader in his twenties. When Bonnie and Clyde were gunned down, Benny hired an airplane to fly over Clyde's funeral and drop a large wreath of flowers. Clyde was most unpopular with the laws because he killed so many.


A survey showed that Nick the Greek was the top tourist attraction in Las Vegas, ahead of the Hoover Dam. The Greek would go from mob casino to mob casino shooting dice and drawing a crowd. He was broke and that was kept secret while the Mob sold the Greek and the fake stories of him to draw the tourists. Cy Rice, his biographer, says he borrowed all the money he could in Las Vegas and Los Angeles, and his word and markers were never good again. The crunch year was 1949..the matches with first Moss and next, Ray Ryan. In the introduction to his authorized biography, on the dust cover, Cy Rice wrote,"From 1928 to 1949 Nicholas Dandolos feigned as the undisputed gambling monarch of the world.." Rice tape recorded the Greek for a month before he died. The parts about his last years in Vegas are the most accurate. The Greek didn't tell of his poker losses to Arnold Rothstein, in several books, or any poker losses, such as to Ray Ryan, well documented by trial transcrips, or to Johnny Moss.

Mickey Cohen, number two to Bugsy Siegel, portrayed in the movie by whom? came to Odessa since they did some business witt Paul Harvey. I guess laying off big football wagers, horse bets from oil men. The Texas Rangers called Harvey on the phone and told him to get Cohen out of Texas fast. Paul Harvey said, "Why? Is he some kind of outlaw?" Cohen drove to Wichita Falls where the Rangers grabbed him and put him on a plane.

Ctaig's statements that was no high stakes poker at that time is way false. He did NOT READ, Benny's oral history which he said wrongly didn't mention Johnny Moss, the Greek's eulogy which he says didn't mention Benny, or any of the Arnold Rothstein biographies, or the countless articles that refer to the Greek as "the Aristotle of the don't pass line." The Greek was a fader and therefore had a percentage advantage in the open shoot and fade dice games back east. He won and lost millions. However, being a fader in Las Vegas with boxcars barred, is a sucker bet.

Everyone wondered where the Greek got the, maybe, $5 million he arrived in Las Vegas with. He told Cy Rice that Dutch Shultz gave him a big suitcase with the money to hold. Then Shultz was killed. I think Benny had heard of the huge sums the Greek had lost at poker to Rothstein and others in New York. He thought Johnny Moss could beat him. I think he did it for the money and to relieve the boredom of a town of 18,000 people. Benny was a showman. He knew how to draw a crowd. NIck the Greek went broke in 1949 and never told about that.

Last edited by Johnny Hughes; 08-20-2011 at 09:35 AM.
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #28
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

..Thank you, thank you sba9630 for posting the Jack Binion interveiw (above). I totally accept Jack's version of events because they are logical. He says Benny sent for Moss, the ring game and heads up match lasted a few monthes, but it WAS NOT CONTINUOUS. They would break up and come back. Part of the poker game moved out to the Flamingo. There was one long last session. Both the Greek and Johnny Moss were known for long sleepless sessions. Since the Greek was beholden to the Mob, it is natural to have some of the poker game at the Flamingo. It was there that the Greek played Ray Ryan in late 1949.

I interviewed Jack Binion, many years ago. Really nice guy. Some tidbits from the Gary Wise interview on tape. He considers his best friend, Doyle, as the best poker player of all time. He had differences with Amarillo Slim, and shows disrespect. He has not reconciled with his sister, Becky Behen??

Two Plus Two is wonderful for a writer. You correct me, and research. Correct my tone. Shouldn't have used the word evidence. sba9630 found a tape essential to this argument that I didn't know existed. I will use this in any thing I write later because it is right on the money! He also posted a link to a great article in Sports Illustrated by Bud Shrake about Moss and the bigger poker game. The excreable Jon Bradshaw in Fast Company plagiarizes this article and one Shrake wrote about Titanic Thompson, sometimes almost word for word.
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2011, 11:03 AM   #29
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 233
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

Johnny....Craig never said Moss was not mentioned nor that no high stakes games were played. All he says is that Benny never mentions the game with Moss and the Greek. Both are mentioned in the report just not the "legendary" game.

Benny's poker losses when first in Vegas were why Mrs Binion would not allow a poker room for many years.

Since Paul Harvey was from west Texas what else do you know about him. Heard any good stories or did you witness any? When did he pass on? As far as Ft Worth there was a great book by a Texas historian named Ann(?) which was published by UT Press. It was the history of gambling and casinos on the Jacksboro Hwy from the 30's to 70's. Never read it but hope to soon. Since you rode with Curly for years how about some stories on him.
vegasskip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2011, 11:43 AM   #30
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,144
Re: Nick the Greek/Johnny Moss/others. Las Vegas Club,1949. The Evidence.

I didn't ride with Curly for years. Once, I went with him to East Texas, and only once. We went to poker games, horse races, dice games, and an Elk's Stag in Longview, Texas. He had a piece of Johnny Moss in a big razz game where Johnny dueled with Sarge Ferris, another Hall of Famer. With five hundred and thousand dollar bills in the game, it was hard to keep up. Curly and Pat Renfro also played in the game, but the big stacks and the trash talkers were Moss and Sarge. I sat in a shoeshine stand and watched. I was not told and did not ask how much they won, if any. It was a miracle of a night because there were five dice tables downstairs and they were all running to the shooter, it seemed. The traveling gamblers were getting broke and coming to Curly for a stake. I played in a five-dollar limit seven-stud game.Curly watched as they cheated me and didn't tell me until later. An overhand stack, rather primitive. There was a gambling joint out in the woods with a dice game, open shoot and fade, and the dice were not exactly square. There was a big seven-five lowball game that was on the square because of the gamblers there. Hackshaw Hackinaw would stack the deck some and Curly would not false cut or help him. He said it was a square poker game.

Curly was a world-class cheater, on the road an incredibly long 60 years! In his old age, he lived in motels and moved on to the next golf tournament or stag or big standing poker game. He was never broke. I wrote Doyle and Crandell Addington asking about Curly. Doyle said he was the "consumate" gambler with no leaks. He said he, Red Harris, and Curly shot their way out of a motel in San Angelo when the robbers were trying to get them. Crandell said he was kind of a mystery. He'd just show up, get the money, and be back on the road. Curly taught me what to watch out for. He had a closet full of cheating devices, etc in his house: marked cards, strippers..rounded cards, loaded dice, shaved dice, a hold out machine which he didn't like or need, funny sunglasses that would read the backs of pre-marked cards. I never ever cheated because I ran poker games and mostly, I would be afraid to cheat for fear of death. Cheating in the bigger games was rare because everyone was watching every move and knew what to look for. The same guys who would cheat on the road would play on the square in their home town or area. At a convention or Elk's Stag, the rule was get the money before it walks.

In 1952, Curly was arrested at the State Democratic Convention in Oklahoma running a big dice game. He had a delegate's badge. This made national news with a picture. They caught him with gaffed dice and marked cards. This was before my time. After that, he and Red would put a big bowl of dice on the table at their high game in Lubbock and let the shooters get them, and the house wouldn't touch them.

Last edited by Johnny Hughes; 08-20-2011 at 12:06 PM.
Johnny Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive