There are a few critics who say the big poker game that included several players in 1949 at the Las Vegas club, controlled by Benny Binion did not take place anything near the story. They say it was a head's up match between Johnny Moss and Nick the Greek, but others played. Moss said it was in 1949. Cy Rice, Nick the Greek's biographer cited 1949 as the year the Greek went broke, and never regained a bankroll.

These critics say Binion's Horseshoe opened in 1951. It was the Horseshoe. Several histories have this wrong. At the license hearing, Benny was listed as restaurant manager. It was sometime after 1954 when Benny got out of prison, that the Binion name was attached but Benny could not get a gambling license with his criminal record and being an ex-con.

The critics say Johnny Moss was banned from Las Vegas for twenty years which is false.

The critics say Binion did not mention high stakes poker from that era in his brief 1973 oral history for UNLV. Here is what he said about Nick the Greek.
"One day a guy beat him out of a five hundred and somethin' thousand dollars playin' poker. So he was give out, and I went with him to get the money to take back to give to the guy. And I said, "My God, this is a lot of money to give to a man!"
He said, "My life don't go with it," and he was pullin' his clothes off to go to bed.
And he had that money in a old chest in his room, and it wasn't even locked, down under some clothes."

Ted Binion said in an interview that Benny lost $400,000 playing poker shortly after he arrived in Las Vegas.

This would be Nick the Greek's late 1949 poker and gin rummy loss to Ray Ryan. In the oral history, Benny also refers to Nick the Greek being broke.


The critics also state that Benny didn't mention Johnny Moss in his oral history. He did. This was in 1973, when the World Series was just getting started and was not that big a deal.


Here is what Benny said about Johnny Moss in his 1973 oral history when the critics state flatly that Johnny Moss was not mentioned:

"And this was the most thrilling game--I've seen lot of poker games; this one this time was the most thrilling game I've ever seen. Pug was down to $30,000 once--there's $130,000 in the game--and when it got down to two men, Pug was down to $30,000 once, Johnny Moss was down to $30,000 once. Johnny Moss come back, put Pug down to $30,000, and then Johnny bluffed his money off Pug. Johnny's a big bluffer anyhow, you know.
[MEG: He bluffed with a single ace or something didn't he?]
Yeah. Bluffed with nothin.
Yeah. Johnny Moss bluffed, single ace. But Johnny Moss's gettin' a little older. I don't doubt but what Pug was the best player, but I think a few years ago, Johnny Moss was the best."

The critics say Nick the Greek was the "Aristotle of the pass." line. He always bet the don't pass side and was called "the Aristotle of the don't pass line."

The critics state there was no mention of Benny Binion in the eulogy for Nick the Greek, printed in the newspaper and in Cy Rice's biography of Nick the Greek. That is again, false.

In their worst error, the critics say there was no mention of Benny Binion at Nick the Greek's funeral or in the newspaper eulogy written by Hank Greenspun who also delivered the eulogy at the funeral. Binion, a pall bearer, is prominently mentioned in the third line, the lead, of the eulogy as printed on the front page of the Las Vegas Sun on December 10th, 1966. Greenspun started, "In discussing with good friends of Nicholas Dandolos, who should be the person to discuss Nick's contribution to life , at his death, Benny Binion told me a story of a former governor of Texas..." The only person mentioned in the obituary except Benny Binion and Nick the Greek is Bet a Million Gates.

Pall bearers were Benny Binion, Hank Greenspun, KIrk Kervorian, Dr. Morris Wilbanks, Jim Harakas, and T. Basil Lambrose. Honorary pall bearers included the Goveror elect, Paul Laxalt, Jack Binion, Ted Binion, Moe Dalitz, and Poker Hall of Famers: Sid Wyman, and Joe Bernstein, as well as major sucker, Major Riddle, and Jimmy Snyder. Ed Sullivan was there as were two F.B.I. agents spying on the crowd. The critics got Nick the Greek's age wrong by ten years. He was 84 when he died. The idea that the Binion family were not close friends of Nick the Greek and also close friends with Johnny Moss is silly at best. The entire eulogy for Nick the Greek is also printed in Cy Rice's Nick the Greek: King of the Gamblers.

The critics say Johnny Moss was broke because he had to work in a card room. He and Sid Wyman were spreading what Crandell Addington describes as "the largest cash poker game of all time" at the Dunes. Addington said, "it made the early World Series seem like a minnow."

I do not believe that Poker Alice had seven children after she was forty but I am still working on it.

Appreciate the stories Johnny and I can usually follow along but damn, I need an Advil after this one.

OP:

Excellent read.

If you get the chance, go to the Kindle Store on Amazon and look for the book The Biggest Game in Town. I'm sure you'll love it. I just made a thread on it yesterday. I'm sure you'll enjoy that book. A. Alvarez is a great poker historian and so are you.

yo johnny don't be so upset about those "critics" they are just forum posters.

I say that because when your upset your writting suffers from it.

Still keep posting those stories they are ncie to read.

I believe the doubters said Binion did not mention Johnny Moss and Nick the Greek together (meaning their big game). They are not claiming what you say they are claiming.

If the game did take place and was as well attended by spectators as has been claimed in stories I have read, why are there no news stories written at the time it happened?

Your thread title implied you would provide evidence. Where is it? Do you even know the meaning of the word evidence?

This. Saying "not true", or "not that, but this" is not evidence. Don't tell us there is evidence, SHOW us the evidence.

cliff notes :-p

Classic. Where is the actual Evidence you speak of Johnny?

I'm glad we got some hard evidence here and not just some rambling conjecture.

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

The nameless critics are not claiming that no poker match involving those players ever took place, or even perhaps that it was a big game. The question is whether the specific game described in The Biggest Game in Town, that passed into legend as the origin of the World Series of Poker, actually took place. Since Alvarez mentioned how "Binion got his publicity" and how the players were "surrounded by crowds six deep," a few latter-day writers started to wonder where this publicity was at the time, why nobody but Moss ever mentioned this game, and even him not until decades later.

If you have facts about this game, some 1949-1975 corroborating evidence, that would be great, but if there were any in your post, I can't find it. Saying you found evidence that this happened and pointing out a description of them playing poker is like saying you have evidence of Babe Ruth's called shot and telling us about a newspaper article you once read that said he hit a lot of home runs.

As for the rest of your "the critics also" claims, you're correct that Binion did mention Moss in his UNLV interviews. However, Michael Craig never said that Binion never discussed high stakes poker. The claim is that Binion did not mention the specific, legendary game, or anything close to it, not that he never mentioned poker. Also, Craig was quoting the Review-Journal obituary which called Nick the Greek the "Aristotle of the Pass Line."

I do find it interesting that you chose to stop quoting Binion at the moment he discusses Moss' later years: "...I think a few years ago, Johnny Moss was the best. But when a guy gets older, they can't set there. I never seen but one poker player quit the game with any money when he got old, with a lot of money. He was a fellow they called "Society Red" from Dallas, Texas..." I don't think you need to read too far between the lines to believe Binion was saying Moss had lost his ability and wasn't doing all that well towards the end.

This, this this....keep the stories coming though.

Craig said Binion was not mentioned in the news story or eulogy of Binion. He obviously never read it. Craig said high stakes poker from that era was not mentioned in Binion's oral history. The quote above is about Nick the Greek losing $550,000 at poker. That is high stakes. Craig could not have read Binion's oral history because he was wrong about no mehntion of Moss and wrong about mention of high stakes poker. Craig could not have read the newspaper story or eulogy. It is short, simple and starts out talking about Benny Binion, a pall bearer, being a friend of the Greeks. Benny was more than mentioned. He was the ONLY PERSON THERE THAT WAS MENTIONED. In every story about Nick the Greek, it said he bet the don't pass line. I saw him do it. This would draw a small crowd, but it wasn't in the newspapers. The silly article about Nick the Greek in Collier's was half-written by Hank Greenspun.

At Binion's, in 1960, the year I met Benny, there were 10 cent craps with a neon sign right by the front door with a crowd spilling over into the sidewalk with shooters and system players writing down each roll. That wasn't in the newspaper.

When the F.B.I. arrested Nick the Greek for his part in an attempt to kidnap Ray Ryan, that was not in the Las Vegas newspapers. When there was a trial and the Greek testified, that wasn't in the Las Vegas newspapers. When Nick the Greek was broke and owed everybody, that wasn't in the newspapers or the Collier's article.

When Cat Noble was killed Benny was mentioned in national news magazines. Benny didn't mention that or many, many things in his brief oral biography.

nice read, ty.

You can be fun to read, Mr Hughes, but when it comes to providing evidence, you need a bit of a refresher course. Not asking for Subject:Poker-type citations, but "It's true, I seen it" ain't really good enough, either.

In 1949, Benny Binion was under a lot of legal pressure and facing extradition to Texas. He and Johnny Moss had troubles with and were being investigated by the Internal Revenue Service. They would not announce their big winning to the newspapers and the I.R.S.

Also, the newspaper would not print what their biggest advertisers, the casinos, didn't want printed.

The Greek's big match with Ray Ryan in the late part of 1949 was not in the newspapers either, but much later with trials, it was in newspapers. At one point, Nick the Greek filed a lawsuit against Ray Ryan for cheating. That was not in the Las Vegas newspapers also. The suit was dropped.

I agree that Craig was obviously wrong about Binion not mentioning Moss at all. Quote exactly where Craig wrote this. I reprinted the excerpt you refer to, and it doesn't say that Binion never mentions poker. Craig wrote that Binion never mentions a game between Moss and Dandalos, or a poker game that had huge publicity and inspired the WSoP. That was the legend for decades.

Also, it doesn't matter what you saw Nick the Greek do. Craig was directly quoting the Review Journal article with regards to "Aristotle of the Pass Line." Acting like you caught somebody in an error when they're directly quoting a newspaper doesn't count as a win.

Also, again, none of this has to do what what supposedly is your main issue: evidence that the legendary " "Mr. Moss, I have to let you go" game that supposedly inspired the World Series of Poker ever happened. It would be great if you did. Fine, it wasn't in the newspapers. Don't you find it odd that nobody but Johnny Moss ever mentioned this huge game that was supposedly witnessed by hundreds of spectators over five months, and even Moss apparently never mentioned it for decades?

As for your claims that everybody involved wanted to keep things quiet, and didn't want word of it getting out to the IRS, that seems odd in connection with Alvarez's description: "Benny had thoughtfully positioned [the game] near the entrance to the casino, was surrounded by crowds six deep." Doesn't really sound like a man frightened by word getting out.

And I'm still curious why you cut off Binion's Johnny Moss memories at the point where they started to imply that Moss wasn't doing that well in his final years.

Yeah he should citate the dozens of academic articles written about the game Good stuff Mr Hughes I`ll have to buy that book

Great read but Who are those critics? I really don't know... a little background? Link?

The Binion oral history was in 1973, when Johnny Moss was slowing down from age, but he still won several bracelets. When I write something, I do a literature review, finding everything I can about someone like Nick the Greek. In countless written accounts, he is always refered to as "the Aristotle of the Don't Pass Line." I do not think he was called something else by the Las Vegas newspaper. Hank Greenspun wrote the eulogy, the newspaper articles, and the spurious 1954 Collier's article. Craig could not have read the Collier's article, the Greenspun eulogy, or Cy Rice's biography of Nick the Greek because HE MISQUOTES ALL THREE AND COUNTLESS OTHER ARTICLES. Craig was shooting from the hip basing his ideas on what WAS NOT IN BINION'S ORAL HISTORY, NOT IN THE LAS VEGAS NEWSPAPERS, NOT IN NICK THE GREEK'S BIO, and he was dead wrong about all of them.
A quick search turns up these:
The Rise Of The Biggest Little City: An Encyclopedic History Of ...
Dwayne Kling, Rollan Melton - 2010 - 256 pages
Dandolos, a philosophical man known to some as the "Aristotle of the don't-pass
line," was probably the highest-rolling professional gambler in American history
. He was suave and soft-spoken, and in the gaming world he will always be ...
books.google.com

Collier's
1954 by Hank Greenspun who wrote the eulogy and delivered it and put it in his newspaper.

While everybody else is reading the Racing Form, Nick the Greek reads Plato's Dialogues and the works of Aristotle — a practice that has caused him to be called the "Aristotle ol the don't-pass line." Basically, Nick the Greek is a kind ...

Misquoting like claiming Craig wrote that Binion never mentions poker in his oral history?

Once again: Don't you find it odd that nobody but Johnny Moss ever mentioned this legendary game that was supposedly witnessed by hundreds, if not thousands of people over five months? Not Binion, Nick the Greek, or even some tourist hanging around downtown? Or that nobody heard about this game until the 1970s?

Binion's Horseshoe put out the story of the big match in its brochures and press for the World Series. The World Series didn't start until 1970. Benny and Jack Binion approved the adds, press, and story.

According to Michael Craig, Johnny Moss DID NOT WIN his first three bracelets, because he was "banned from Las Vegas for two decades" and could not have been there. Moss was really slowing down from age at the time of and after Benny Binion's brief, colorul oral history. He only won 9 braclets, the last when he was 81. The World Series winnings were chicken feed to to Johnny Moss or any of the biggest gamblers in the early times. Most of the Poker Hall of Famers played in the much bigger game, the biggest cash game of all time, hosted by Johnny Moss at the Sid Wyman-controlled Dunes at this time. Poker Hall of Famers attracted by Moss' game included Doyle Brunson, Sarge Ferris, Johnny Moss, Sid Wyman, Crandell Addington, Joe Bernstein, Red Winn, Puggy Pearson, and Corky McCorquandale. Nick the Greek may have played stake money but he was broke, old, and died shortly thereafter. Benny wrote in his oral history about a broke Nick the Greek eating free around town, and being comped a small room.

Cy Rice, the Greek's biographer, was with Nick the Greek his last year and listened to his stories. He believed and do I that Nick the Greek was broke after 1949, got broke that year, and could not have played the match in 1951. The Greek owed money all over town. In the 1954 Collier's article written by Hank Greenspun, the man who wrote his eulogy, the only interview the Greek did at that time, it made it sound like you could make money shooting dice in Las Vegas going with the don't pass and betting along with Nick the Greek, and the house. Sid Wyman was quoted a lot.

One odd thing in Hank Greenspun's eulogy might have been an inside joke! He mentioned the Greek shooting a dice game with Gus Greenbaum for $10,000 a roll. According to Doyle, it was Gus Greenbaum that caught Johnny Moss cheating leading to his temporary exile. Gus Greenbaum was murdered in Phoenix by Marshall Califano, the Mafia enforcer that was Nick the Greek's pal and tried to get Ray Ryan to return money to the Greek. Nick the Greek and Califano tried to kidnap Ray Ryan and were caught. The Greek testified against him as did Ryan. Nick the Greek was from Chicago and under the protection of Al Capone earlier. He went to Tony Acardo to complain of the Ryan cheating in 1949, and Califano was asked to get the money back. NONE OF THIS WAS EVER IN THE LAS VEGAS NEWSPAPER OR IN THE EULOGY OR THE COLLIER'S ARTICLE.

In the eulogy, Binion, Gates, and Greenbaum were the only ones mentioned. Not mentioned in the eulogy or the Collier's article were the Greek's hoodlum pals: Arnold Rothstein, Al Capone, Marshall Califano, Dutch Shultz, Lucky Luciano, and Tony Accardo. It didnt say he traveled cheating with Titanic Thompson. It didn't say a lot of things. Making any arguement on what it did not say is rather child-like. Saying Benny Binion did not back Moss's story of Nick the Greek is just dead wrong since all the casino publicity coming out while Benny was alive re-told the old story. Jack Binion and Doyle Brunson believed it. A couple of guys doubt it to build up their own selves but their arguments are child-like.

Cooperstown told the story of Abner Doubleday inventing baseball for years. It was a good story, but that doesn't mean it happened. And in his oral histories, when they asked him about the WSoP, Benny Binion said the idea for it originated at the 1969 Texas Gamblers Reunion.

To be clear: yes, many things that happened weren't in the newspaper. However, you seem to think this means the fact that something isn't in the newspaper is proof that it happened. That's not what evidence means.

You believe Johnny Moss because you met him, and that was apparently a huge deal for you. That's nice, but it doesn't mean the rest of us need to believe all of his stories.

Sports Illustrated - January 25, 1971

It Ain't Just All Heaven, Gambling. There's A Lot You Got To Contend With--John Hardie Moss, World's Best Poker Player

Edwin Shrake

Johnny Moss had been playing in high games for years when Benny Binion called him and said, "They got a fellow out here that thinks he can play stud poker." Moss packed and headed for Las Vegas for his confrontation with Nick the Greek—a classic session. "I wasn't the best stud player in the world no way, but I could play good stud, you know, and I figured I'd better do it," Moss says. "We got at it, and there was hundreds of people sweating the game; people everywhere, and the table was full of checks."

Wise Hand Poker 04-16-08

Jack Binion Interview

Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder also confirmed the story and said he was there. I wonder. Snyder worked the press for Binion's during the early World Series and that story of the big match was repeated.

I think there was a mixup between Moss, who could not read, and his biographer. Moss said the match took place in 1949. The biographer threw in Binion's Horseshoe. Maybe Moss said "Binion's" meaning Benny's place. Bud Shrake, one of my favorite Texas writers probably got it wrong when fact checking and he found there was no Binion's Horseshoe until way after 1949. He thought Moss got the year wrong. Shrake writing in Sports Illustrated didn't mention Moss had been elected Poker Champ by a vote of his peers. His story was about the big, big game at the Dunes. He, Sid Wyman. Doyle Brunson, and everyone else agreed Moss was the greatest in his day which lasted a long time.

http://espn.go.com/eoe/wsop/history.html

"Binion agreed to set up a match between Dandolos and the legendary Johnny Moss, with the stipulation that the game would be played in public view." ... "[Binion] noted that the public had gathered outside the casino each day to watch the game with the fervor of dedicated sports fans, and he was amazed at the attention the event had attracted.

Sounds like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?