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Old 10-12-2010, 12:41 PM   #1
gobbo
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New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

There are 6 of these nearby the poker room at the Bellagio right now. I'm not sure when they got put in, but someone pointed them out to me and I went over to have a look. You can play .5/1, 1/2 or 2/4 HU LHE against a computer player and from the looks of things there are absolutely no catches about this thing.

http://www.slotmachinesforum.com/sho...-Up-Poker-(IGT)

The craziest thing that I just discovered yesterday is after literally every single hand has finished (you could've just folded preflop) you can LOOK AT YOUR OPPONENT'S CARDS. You can pinpoint exactly everything that your opponent does and can look if he bluffed you right after every single hand. The speed is super fast as well.

So, let's recap.

A non-learning opponent.
0 rake. Nada. Zip.
You can post-hand superuse within the rules.

I don't have to tell you guys twice that this is a ridiculously beatable game if everything is as they say it is, and if it isn't there's no chance that it's legal. I think that the game itself is probably only okayed because they got convinced that there are enough droolers out there and the stakes are low enough they'll still make enough money off of them (especially with the hand bonus they try to sell you).

Let me know if you guys see this somewhere in your home casino. I'm currently winning like 50 bets against them, let's see how long it takes for them to take them down.

Wow this is the spammiest post I've ever written.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:44 PM   #2
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

How well does it play?
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:45 PM   #3
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

how do you even post this. many people will be thankful im sure though...
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:45 PM   #4
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

From what I saw, it played super passively on the river. Neglecting to bet top pair in a lot of spots and basically undervalued top pair in general. To be fair, I'm no expert in HU LHE but I feel as though I had a pretty big edge against it.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:46 PM   #5
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveNow View Post
how do you even post this.
Sorry buddy, it's 2/4 LHE. I doubt I'm breaking something wide open.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:46 PM   #6
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

i think you under-estimate how good computer AI is. Its not just a case of seeing what its doing and adjusting. Good AI will be able to adjust too.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:48 PM   #7
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

"With no rake and no pay table, decisions are made based on the current game state, but unlike a live opponent, it does not “learn” a player’s strategy."

Seems to go against that.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #8
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

How do you know its a non-learning AI?

Last edited by NoMeansYes_; 10-12-2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason: orly
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #9
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

I'm just going off what's in the article guys, I'm not saying it's gospel but that line kinda tells me that it isn't a learning AI.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:52 PM   #10
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

There has to be a catch. Its non-learning -- meaning it doesn't adapt????. If not, this machine will be scrap heaped within a month IMHO as it will be pummeled.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:52 PM   #11
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

i saw a guy wearing sunglasses while playing one of these yesterday so while it might not learn it does read your soul
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:53 PM   #12
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

is it easy to read, or does it hide its ranges well?
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:54 PM   #13
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

It's a setup. It will keep offering increasing stakes until you end up playing 1K/2K against Hawrilenko directing the computer from a remote location.
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:58 PM   #14
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Terry View Post
It's a setup. It will keep offering increasing stakes until you end up playing 1K/2K against Hawrilenko directing the computer from a remote location.
"YOU JUST A PUNK ***** LET'S DOUBLE THE STAKES

(YES/NO)"
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:59 PM   #15
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

When I was a kid I remember one summer at Wildwood NJ they put one of those bowling ball games at one of the stands on the boardwalk...the one where you have to roll the ball over a hill and if it doesn't roll back you win a prize.

Well they had the angle wrong and we beat the game for an entire weekend winning stuffed animals to our hearts content.

The following weekend the game was nowhere to be found. It returned a few weeks later fixed and was, correctly, virtually unbeatable.

My guess is that if everything you saw is true it's a similar situation. Someone who knows how to play will clean up on it and it will either disappear or have the code changed to play 'better'.

Also if what you say is true I wouldn't mind seeing one in AC on my next trip!
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:59 PM   #16
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

With no rake, wouldn't that suggest that it operates like a slot machine, with a guaranteed payout of say, 98%? With that said, the hand outcomes might be predetermined, just like the outcomes of a "bonus" spin on a slot when you get to pick the animation?
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:02 PM   #17
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

if it takes the neural net approach and plays according to the game state, its basically like a backgammon bot. with so much more imperfect info in LHE, compared to backgammon, it seems like it would play pretty bad.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:03 PM   #18
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoDiddleyMacau View Post
With no rake, wouldn't that suggest that it operates like a slot machine, with a guaranteed payout of say, 98%? With that said, the hand outcomes might be predetermined, just like the outcomes of a "bonus" spin on a slot when you get to pick the animation?
this is not legal... any machine that uses cards must play a 52 deck fairly. this is why payouts are adjusted on vid poker, but the play itself is the same from machine to machine.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:04 PM   #19
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

In before Chainsaw gets the machine yanked from the casino floor
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:08 PM   #20
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

lol at gobbo chainsawing the LHE machine at bellagio
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:09 PM   #21
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

My first immediate thought was "Chainsaw has found his place to retire."
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:33 PM   #22
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMeansYes_ View Post
How do you know its a non-learning AI?
how would it differentiate between players? if you think its learning your tendencies you could just get up and sit back down or change machines or whatever.

this is kind of amazing. someone call mr gatorade! he hates bots!
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:39 PM   #23
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoureToast View Post
There has to be a catch. Its non-learning -- meaning it doesn't adapt????. If not, this machine will be scrap heaped within a month IMHO as it will be pummeled.
If it "adapted" it would open itself up for explotation. In theory a non adapting strategy could be unbeatable. I played it for a few minutes and it was quite aggressive and tricky. It even check raised bluffed the river once.

At first glance it appears to me that only very good players will beat it, they won't beat it for too much, and that the correct strategy to beat it is a bit different than against typical humans.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:42 PM   #24
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

What sklansky said
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:45 PM   #25
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Re: New poker machine: Rake free, headsup limit holdem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbo View Post
From what I saw, it played super passively on the river. Neglecting to bet top pair in a lot of spots and basically undervalued top pair in general. To be fair, I'm no expert in HU LHE but I feel as though I had a pretty big edge against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
If it "adapted" it would open itself up for explotation. In theory a non adapting strategy could be unbeatable. I played it for a few minutes and it was quite aggressive and tricky. It even check raised bluffed the river once.
funny
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