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Old 07-22-2013, 10:37 PM   #1
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Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

http://www.examiner.com/article/neva...nt-rake-system


Winner Takes All (WTA) vs. the Weighted Contribution (WC) method?

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The regulations for the Ultimate Poker site stipulate that they have to use the Winner Takes All (WTA) system of rake attribution. There are several different methods used for various poker sites for paying rake.

The method used by most online poker is known as weighted contributed (WC) which players receive rake based on the amount they contribute to the pot. The WTA system differs because it works by allocating all the rake paid to the winner of the hand.
They claim this method of accounting will help the weaker players in the game. How is this so? I dont get it. Is this about rake back?
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:51 PM   #2
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

Misleading shock headline: it's just a different rakeback/rewards program.

I have not seen any evidence this would punish nits, but I could obviously be convinced if someone has a large database. I would think nits wouldn't be making as many reward points per hand, but would crush in rewards per money wagered, which is all that matters.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:12 PM   #3
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

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I would think nits wouldn't be making as many reward points per hand, but would crush in rewards per money wagered, which is all that matters.
I had not thought of that part. The higher W$SD and aggressively betting people out will benefit them, while call stations will earn points faster. Sometimes fish just want to see their comps add up fast similar to how a slot player might be happy about a free buffet after losing $100.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #4
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

By awarding all points to the winner of the hand (WTA) doesnt a losing playing actually get hurt more? A winning player would also be accumulating points faster? Am I missing something?
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:21 PM   #5
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

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By awarding all points to the winner of the hand (WTA) doesnt a losing playing actually get hurt more? A winning player would also be accumulating points faster? Am I missing something?
Losing players are likely to be in more pots so they are likely to win more pots by sucking out or hitting into hands experienced players would have folded preflop. They lose because they see too many hands. Now if you have a fish that calls down to showdown with crap over and over they will not benefit from this.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:30 PM   #6
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

Wow, WTA is by far the best method. The winner pays the rake so they should be getting all the points. This helps winning players more than losing players compared to WC. Will doubly suck when you are running bad though.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:36 PM   #7
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

Does the WTA concept apply to SNGs as well? what about MTTs?
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:44 PM   #8
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

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Wow, WTA is by far the best method. The winner pays the rake so they should be getting all the points.
Agreed, never understood why sites used other methods. If you win the pot you pay the rake so you should get the rakeback.

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Originally Posted by Ditch Digger View Post
This helps winning players more than losing players compared to WC. Will doubly suck when you are running bad though.
No because of rake being capped losing players generally actually win more pots because they're playing more pots. This will help the average losing player I think more than the average winning player but it's completely fair.

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Does the WTA concept apply to SNGs as well? what about MTTs?
in sngs/mtts everyone pays a fixed rake at the start, so clearly this is not going to apply to those.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:32 AM   #9
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

im watching the ultra stakes games
$25-$50 with a $5000 buy in

the rake on a $200 pot was.....50 cents

the rake on a $900 pot was ..............50 cents
the rake on a $1400 pot was.... 50 cents

what am I missing here

is it like the IRS where rich people use loopholes, just claim deductions and don't pay taxes
seems stupid to charge 2 or 3 whales 50 cents a hand
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:21 AM   #10
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

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....
in sngs/mtts everyone pays a fixed rake at the start, so clearly this is not going to apply to those.
Even in sng's/mtt's it is only the winner/s that has/have less money because of the rake.

Instead of saying 10+1 they could just say 11.

But, I can imagine that an mtt player would like some rakeback even if they didn't cash much.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:36 AM   #11
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

Ballin' link to pokerfuse in paragraph 1
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:25 AM   #12
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

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Originally Posted by timormson View Post
im watching the ultra stakes games
$25-$50 with a $5000 buy in

the rake on a $200 pot was.....50 cents

the rake on a $900 pot was ..............50 cents
the rake on a $1400 pot was.... 50 cents

what am I missing here

is it like the IRS where rich people use loopholes, just claim deductions and don't pay taxes
seems stupid to charge 2 or 3 whales 50 cents a hand
must move up to 25/50nl where all the whales are and pay 50cents/hand in rake.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:16 AM   #13
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This is why many of the higher stake games charge time every 30min instead of raking each pot in live games.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:33 AM   #14
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

The regulator seems to have insisted upon a WTA calculation of rake. Now this is of relevance to reward programmes but it is of more relevance to the tax take if you have multiple jurisdictions pooling their players and doing revenue sharing.

The UK example of how this works is clearest. The proposal is that the UK will charge a 15%(this rate may change) levy on gross revenues from UK players but 0% on players outside the UK.

Now if the revenue sharing states in a player pool all levy the same tax then it does not really matter whether it is WTA or Weighted Contribution but as soon as you have a different rate - a full 15% difference in the UK case then the regulations have introduced a perverse incentive for the sites. The sites would keep more of the money if the player with the lower tax jurisdiction wins the pot under WTA.

If you go for WTA then the game stops being a neutral peer to peer game where the site has no interest in the outcome to a game where they make 15% more if the right player wins. This potentially corrupts the whole game and also potentially provides an incentive for sites to falsely record where the player is based.

WTA is a bad idea for player pooling and revenue sharing.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:54 AM   #15
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Re: Nevada poker site 'Ultimate Poker' to use different rake system

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Originally Posted by zachvac View Post
Agreed, never understood why sites used other methods. If you win the pot you pay the rake so you should get the rakeback.
this is only due to convention - in a live game, the rake is removed between winning the pot and passing it to the winner. this could be due to some advanced calculation, but it's probably just for simplicity. casinos don't offer rewards based on rake paid, so it doesn't really make sense to follow this model in designing an online rakeback system. consider that the simplest way to offer rakeback under this model is simply to...reduce the rake.

that isn't to say that this way couldn't be correct. it's just to say that it should be considered further before implementing it online.

regardless of who pays rake, the value of individual players to sites is becoming better known. there are players who never create action and merely flock to it. why subsidize these players? on the other hand, there are others who either create games (contributing regs) or others who are the catalysts for games (fish). it seems that these players should get the bulk of the rewards.

rather than simply collecting the rake, hanging onto it for a bit and then paying it back equally, the sites should continue tweaking their formulas to create the best games and the best viability for themselves.
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