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Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M

04-15-2009 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black winter day
LMAO, thousands of players have their money frozen for over a year without any response and he needs more evidence.
Why don't you deposit to Battlefield poker right now? I heard they have a sweet $1000 sign up bonus...

The matter of fact is, noone was warned about this tusk issue, we all signed to those sites, because they were MICROGAMING skins, not because of some Tusk company we have never heard of.
Players were mistreated and cheated and noone gives a damn.

But because of people like you, this network is still up and running, raking millions. "My skin is safe, all those others skins were bad", not realising, this could happen to you as well.
I understand your hurt and frustration and I'm sorry for you guys who got burned by this.

I understand that players assumed that Microgaming was liable for the deposits, but I think you need to realize that no online poker account is federally insured. You knew that when you signed up, it was a risk you were willing to take to get that sweet $1000 dollar sign up bonus. There is and always will be some risk attached to keeping your money in an online casino/pokerroom, even seemingly large reputable ones.

In the specific example, the last case shows us that the money isn't a liability to Microgaming, its a liability to the individual skin or group of skins. Signing up with Ladbrokes means that Ladbrokes or its parent company (in the last case Tusk) is liable for your deposit. I would feel comfortable having an large cap exchange listed company, Ladbrokes, being liable for my deposit. It may go bankrupt, but its alot less likely to than the fly by night skins.

The bottomline is if you are willing to play sketchy sites, looking for fishier games, then you have to expect to take on more risk. GiftofGab had warning on his website about the Prima/microgaming network as early as mid 2004.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 05:06 PM
I wrote off the $2500 it cost me last year. It's an irritation but fortunately I've always been conservative in my bankroll management so I played on and it just took me a month and a bit to win back somewhere else.

You're quite right - the lesson is that its up to us to do due dilgence on the rooms we put money in and not trust affiliates or the claims of MG (for example) to be 'unrivalled in player protection' (LOL).

That's why I have only played on Will Hill since - 60 year trading history, stock market listed, EU regulated etc.

And that's why I'm pressing the Unibet rep in this thread to clarify when he says 'your funds are safe' what he actually means by that. Are they held in trust in a segregated account or accounts for the players or is the CEO able to to buy a Ferrari with them?

To me that is a crucial distinction. It is clear to me which means the company is taking player fund protection seriously and which means it isn't.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floptimistico
Hi Soul,

I understand you have an axe to grind over all this (probably lost a lot of money and yes everyone is sympathetic) but I am not going to waste time coming up with "proof". I and many other operators I know (and NO they are not all on the MG network) believe this to be the catalyst (amazingly we have an insight to this industry) for the demise of TUSK/Skins but it is not up to us to prove it..


Hi flop,

Either you are mistaken or someone is lying to me. I gave you the rough numbers.

65% rake to skin to do as they please
17.5% TUSK to pay for services and manage accounts
17.5% MGS

(my numbers may be off a few percentage points and also vary slightly by TUSK skin)

Rakeback would not affect TUSK unless it was over 65%, which it never was.

Now please explain to me in your model how rakeback would financially harm TUSK in anyway....

I mentioned this point months ago and no one has yet refuted it. Yet competing MGS casino owners continue to spread thsi misinformation. Rakeback did not hurt tusk it simply hurt competitors. There is no reason to beleive rakeback affected TUSK in anyway since that money was not TUSKS nor would have ended up in their hands.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by excession
I wrote off the $2500 it cost me last year. It's an irritation but fortunately I've always been conservative in my bankroll management so I played on and it just took me a month and a bit to win back somewhere else.

You're quite right - the lesson is that its up to us to do due dilgence on the rooms we put money in and not trust affiliates or the claims of MG (for example) to be 'unrivalled in player protection' (LOL).

That's why I have only played on Will Hill since - 60 year trading history, stock market listed, EU regulated etc.

And that's why I'm pressing the Unibet rep in this thread to clarify when he says 'your funds are safe' what he actually means by that. Are they held in trust in a segregated account or accounts for the players or is the CEO able to to buy a Ferrari with them?

To me that is a crucial distinction. It is clear to me which means the company is taking player fund protection seriously and which means it isn't.
Hi Excession,

I'll let you know the account set up.

Being a public listed company, as I am sure you would appreciate, we are not a fly by night outfit, even though we are just 10 years old. As well as the poker, we have sports book, casino, bingo, softgames so are not reliant on turnover from poker to run our operations or to survive.. unlike a lot of other "skins" on every network in the world who have no other products.

One thing is for sure though.. I doubt the board or shareholders will let the CEO tap into any fund to pimp up his ride. Mate, we don't even get free drinks at work..!

Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acethiest
Hi flop,

Either you are mistaken or someone is lying to me. I gave you the rough numbers.

65% rake to skin to do as they please
17.5% TUSK to pay for services and manage accounts
17.5% MGS

(my numbers may be off a few percentage points and also vary slightly by TUSK skin)

Rakeback would not affect TUSK unless it was over 65%, which it never was.

Now please explain to me in your model how rakeback would financially harm TUSK in anyway....

I mentioned this point months ago and no one has yet refuted it. Yet competing MGS casino owners continue to spread thsi misinformation. Rakeback did not hurt tusk it simply hurt competitors. There is no reason to beleive rakeback affected TUSK in anyway since that money was not TUSKS nor would have ended up in their hands.

This brings to mind a few questions.

1) If Tusk, when they did their business model felt they could be profitable retaining only 17.5% of the rake, why weren't they?

2) When it became obvious that the business model wasn't working why didn't Tusk go into immediate liquidation, ie in 2007?

3) Or was Tusk never intentioned to be profitable all along, but merely a clever contrivance to separate players from their money while appearing to be a company that struggled and eventually was forced to go into liquidation?
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mellowman307
This brings to mind a few questions.

1) If Tusk, when they did their business model felt they could be profitable retaining only 17.5% of the rake, why weren't they?

2) When it became obvious that the business model wasn't working why didn't Tusk go into immediate liquidation, ie in 2007?

3) Or was Tusk never intentioned to be profitable all along, but merely a clever contrivance to separate players from their money while appearing to be a company that struggled and eventually was forced to go into liquidation?
These are all questions I've asked myself and sadly never got anywhere. Since neither skin owners, MGS or liquidators have provided any real info on what TUSK was it remains a mystery.

Its frustrating because for all I know MGS could be aware of major wrongdoings by TUSK which would warrant criminal prosecution, but MGS has never even whispered. I honestly believe that if MGS worked with the players rather than against, players would be in a much better position (even if they didn;t reimburse us). MGS probably knows more about how TUSK operated than the liquidators.

Last edited by acethiest; 04-15-2009 at 06:18 PM.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acethiest
These are all questions I've asked myself and sadly never got anywhere. Since neither skin owners, MGS or liquidators have provided any real info on what TUSK was it remains a mystery.

Its frustrating because for all I know MGS could be aware of major wrongdoings by TUSK which would warrant criminal prosecution, but MGS has never even whispered. I honestly believe that if MGS worked with the players rather than against, players would be in a much better position (even if they didn;t reimburse us). MGS probably knows more about how TUSK operated than the liquidators.
Not really a mystery to me.

I have been around long enough to see through the veil that Tusk and related companies laid down.

I believe there is enough information in the postings, the reverse takover of Global Approach onward through the Liquidator's report to ask the ASIC to investigate what really happened.

If what I surmise is the true tale of Tusk, the ASIC does have enough power to force a full recovery of the lost monies at least if not all the unsecured creditors.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 08:01 PM
forgot to type 'for the players' between 'lost monies' and 'at least' in my last post and now can't edit.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-15-2009 , 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floptimistico
"As you can see Microgaming is 100% legally responsible". OK. Maybe all the players should hire you as their lawyer. Clearly you are the man with the legal answers. If you citing "liquidators are pursuing this money and eventually will pursue legal action against Microgaming if they do not release the funds" as your proof then please note. Lawyers have to chase somebody.. MG is the obvious target.

Why would Microgaming "scam" players? Can you explain what they would get out of it?
PS: Microgaming are not going to risk losing their multi billion dollar business over $4m..! A garage or fish and chip shop on the corner might..
Microgaming is not a multibillion dollar business, not close. If you define their worth in terms of the total amount of money that is wagered on their site(including double counting of funds being exchanged back and forth between the same players) over a year, then maybe.

Also, your comment about lawyers taking 200 years to extract as much money as possible is not the case for all lawyers, maybe just Microgaming's as scum tends to migrate toward scum. My lawyer for instance is working free of charge for me.
I am quite confident from the information I have been given that players will recover a lot more than just 15-25% or whatever that amount is and that Microgaming will be forced to pay out the difference. As to why would Microgaming do this? Not sure only speculation, but why would Microgaming go into this partnership with Tusk in the 1st place? Why would Microgaming not pay Tusk the amount they owed them ultimately forcing Tusk out of business? If Tusk went out of business, what makes people think Microgaming is so successful, perhaps they are in the same boat with financial difficulties of their own, afterall their operations are quite similar. Only difference is that Microgaming stole from Tusk to help themselves.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-16-2009 , 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floptimistico
I understand you have an axe to grind over all this (probably lost a lot of money and yes everyone is sympathetic) but I am not going to waste time coming up with "proof". I and many other operators I know (and NO they are not all on the MG network) believe this to be the catalyst (amazingly we have an insight to this industry) for the demise of TUSK/Skins but it is not up to us to prove it..

I think you should just admit the catalyst was the big operators on MGS. They wanted Tusk to fail for losing customers to them. At the end of the day you are partially responsible for players losing there money as well. You gained a lot from this and I am sure you voiced your concerns to MGS.

Big rakeback did not have any impact on Tusk, but only the skins margins. Tusk got their fee whether rakeback was 30% or 60%.

I am sure when some of the big affiliates opened skins and drove the traffic to their sites away from Unibet that you weren't too happy about it.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-16-2009 , 08:39 AM
I hope players are now at least excercising sensibly extreme caution about the Microgaming skins they patronise. It maybe didn't seem necessary before, but it is now. While there is a handful of solid places, like Ladbrokes, the majority of those skins are just clones of various operations located on Kahnawake territory and therefore totally unsupported - Colosseum, Crazy Vegas, Poker Share...all that dross. Any of them can go down, and Microgaming will not back you up when they do.

The Microgaming network is not safe.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-17-2009 , 10:08 AM
Why should MG think they don't need a representative here in the 2+2 forums? Of course there're skin representativs, but skins are not in control of every aspect of the playing experience, so... is MG above Stars, FT, Party, etc., and they just don't care what the players say or what their questions are?
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-17-2009 , 11:11 AM
This actually bustoed my roll when this happened and led to me quitting online poker early last year.

Started playing again Jan 09.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-17-2009 , 02:22 PM
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04-17-2009 , 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by boohaa12
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OP WAS a cliffsnotes...n00b.

All that's happened in this thread is some apparent unibet apologist employee is making a fool of themselves.
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04-17-2009 , 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by durkadurka33
OP WAS a cliffsnotes...n00b.

All that's happened in this thread is some apparent unibet apologist employee is making a fool of themselves.
ty for your updated cliffnotes itt
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-17-2009 , 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by durkadurka33
All that's happened in this thread is some apparent unibet apologist employee is making a fool of themselves.
I went on their live chat and asked to speak to a manager about that guy, it's 100% legit and safe to say I won't put a cent on their site as a consequence.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-17-2009 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restlys
its a weird scheme were the players have shares of the company(i have 21) , they should be in the stocks this fall...
They've been talking about hitting the market for years. I'm not using "years" in the figurative, exaggerated way but in the "years" as in "multiple units of 365 days" way. Don't expect it to happen too soon..
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-17-2009 , 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boohaa12
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Company X goes belly up. People who lost money when Company X went belly up, feels Company Y should pay them back.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-18-2009 , 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
Company X goes belly up. People who lost money when Company X went belly up, feels Company Y should pay them back.
People thought they were dealing with company Y and didn't even know about company X's existence. Company X goes belly up and company Y remains silent after more than a year.

But if rooms were pushed towards Tusk by microgaming when the room wanted a license; Microgaming doesn't have any responsibility for this mess?
Also does microgaming not set up the rules for the skins and companies running the skins? Good job!

Personally I picked this room partly because of the rakeback-deal, but also because I thought it was part of the big and reputable microgaming-netwerk. But apparently you don't deal with microgaming at all. And even though you play on their netwerk and pay them, they don't see you as a customer and have made it very clear they don't give a crap about you.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-18-2009 , 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
Company X goes belly up. People who lost money when Company X went belly up, feels Company Y should pay them back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burendi
People thought they were dealing with company Y and didn't even know about company X's existence. Company X goes belly up and company Y remains silent after more than a year.

But if rooms were pushed towards Tusk by microgaming when the room wanted a license; Microgaming doesn't have any responsibility for this mess?
Also does microgaming not set up the rules for the skins and companies running the skins? Good job!

Personally I picked this room partly because of the rakeback-deal, but also because I thought it was part of the big and reputable microgaming-netwerk. But apparently you don't deal with microgaming at all. And even though you play on their netwerk and pay them, they don't see you as a customer and have made it very clear they don't give a crap about you.
+1. I don't think it could be any clearer than that.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-18-2009 , 11:29 AM
Don't feed the troll.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-18-2009 , 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV
Company X goes belly up. People who lost money when Company X went belly up, feels Company Y should pay them back.

Go away. I hope you lose as much money as the people you make fun of.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-20-2009 , 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black winter day
Go away. I hope you lose as much money as the people you make fun of.
He'll never have the chance to.
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote
04-20-2009 , 08:46 AM
dont you guys think what happened with Microgaming/TUsk could happen with ongame this time?
Microgaming poker scandal: licensee in liquidation, and poker players abandoned and owed .3M Quote

      
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