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Old 02-23-2017, 05:43 PM   #26
SuperSwag
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

wouldn't the obvious solution be to play jason live and prove you're a good player?

idk if you know OP but Jacelyn Moskow has a bad rep lol
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:57 PM   #27
Large Big Mac Meal
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Dear OP,

You title the thread: "Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations"

You then go on to explain how this must be true because someone told you that he said something. You have no evidence that Jason is making claims that you cheated. Are you not making unfounded accusations?

Ohhhhh the irony.
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Old 02-23-2017, 07:09 PM   #28
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Dear OP,

I still don't know who the f you are so your thread here didn't bring you what you want. Stop using this forum to make pointless threads to gain self-attention. He thinks your a bot so what... I think you might be a sheep banger and so what as well.
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:20 PM   #29
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchOfEVil View Post
I mean, ive played online poker for 13 years now. I can still not do a shuffle with chips live or look comfortable at all so I look like a total tool playing live except for my actual sizings and how i play my ranges or how I generally think about poker.
Haha this so much. Last time I played live (about 6 months ago or so) i tried to shuffle my chips and ended up knocking my neighbors stack over which got mixed with the pot and play halted for a good 15 mins.
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:28 PM   #30
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

FWIW Jason and I are friends, I came to a similar conclusion without having ever discussed it with him. Im talking about Jaclynn, I've never played Fernando
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:38 PM   #31
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

So confused. Which one was banging sheep?
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:14 PM   #32
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

why not play live, but with the app? sit next to each other or play for no points and show your decision making over a small sample and give them confidence you aren't cheating?
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:27 PM   #33
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

There seems to be a general lack of understanding of the OFC landscape, dynamics and how getting action works. Online OFC, unlike all other online poker, is a completely different creature since it’s mostly played on a free non rake app called Pineapple. Money is not deposited to this app, and as a result most games played for money are with people you trust. I started playing OFC on August 2015 and became obsessed with it. Since nobody knew me, I started challenging well known players on the app that I could find on the top hands section of the app and offered to post before playing. By aggressively seeking action and by offering people who would play me a 10% freeroll for finding me new players, I eventually started playing Natasha on the app. I have never played Jason a single hand of OFC, and he has not seen me play more than 10 hands in a live setting. I can thus assume, that any opinions Jason has about my play are coming from Natasha. I completely understand Natasha’s viewpoint in terms of her thinking that I cheated. One player confirmed to me that Jason had told him that I was using a bot. As stated before, players had accepted then declined to play me, and there is a strong reason to believe it was due to the bot rumor being spread amongst the OFC community.
I have no problem with them thinking I am cheating, and I don’t condone their behavior of trying to protect people who they think can be cheated. The problem lies in the resulting consequences of them spreading the rumor.

In OFC it’s difficult to go to an online site and play like you can do for other forms of poker(there is Tonybet but it does not have that much action, has rake, and is not as convenient as the Pineapple App). As a result, people thinking I use a bot kills a great deal of my potential action in the only poker game I play nowadays. Also, as it happened, it puts a player who is down to me a significant number of points in a really tough spot. How can you settle versus someone who people have told you is cheating? Moreover, it unfairly jeopardizes Jaclynn since she is being called a cheater and has been accused of using a bot by more than one person who quit playing her. Lastly, it can seem like I am also making unfounded accusations as I provide no evidence of my statements such as the names of the players who told me Jason had told them of the bot. I’ve made the mistake in the past of mentioning someone by name without asking, and these people who I tend to mention as "well known players" do not want their names posted. I had known about the rumor for about 5 months and since I am not a big fan of drama, I did not post anything. Then people started declining to play me after having accepted. Then a player who was down a significant number tells me about the bot rumor. Finally, Jaclynn publicly being accused a cheater was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Someone suggested as a solution that I should play Jason live. The variance in pineapple is about 18 pts per hand and edges tend to run from 0-.5 pt per hand between good players. Therefore, to get statistically significant results in such a game would require thousands of hands. For example, suppose I have an edge of .2/ hand vs Jason, I would still lose 13.3% of the time after playing a total 16,500 (10,000 normal hands and 6500 extensional fantasy land hands).

From what I know, Regular OFC has been solved, but Pineapple OFC has not been solved. The complexity or size of the game of regular ofc is 2*10^40, but pineapple is way more complex as its size is 3.8*10^60.

Last edited by relaxursoul; 02-23-2017 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:43 PM   #34
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Hi, this is Christoph Haller, I played Fernando during PCA 2016 on the App and won over 800 points during the tournament, we settled there and started a new round. After 2 months I was up another 539 points and he quit playing me. I'm sure he didn't, but if he had help from a bot, I must have been incredibly lucky or it wasn't a good one.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:08 AM   #35
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Just ask Jason politely to start telling people that he strongly believes you're using a bot even though he can't prove it. I'm sure he won't mind being honest about this. Problem solved.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:47 AM   #36
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Fernando: playing him live has nothing to do with proving whether or not you beat him. If I thought I was one of the best players on earth I would happily take on the normal amount of variance i take on the app to prove a point. Who cares if you win or lose. By refusing to play not on the app you look guilty and foolish.

Edit: I think it's very unlikely you are cheating and very likely Natasha overrated herself and can't accept her loss. I'm just telling you how it looks. My good friend was accused of similar cheating and i am extremely confident he is innocent (thunder Keller) and he would have played anyone anytime anywhere to prove his side.
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:11 AM   #37
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Fernando: playing him live has nothing to do with proving whether or not you beat him. If I thought I was one of the best players on earth I would happily take on the normal amount of variance i take on the app to prove a point. Who cares if you win or lose. By refusing to play not on the app you look guilty and foolish.

Edit: I think it's very unlikely you are cheating and very likely Natasha overrated herself and can't accept her loss. I'm just telling you how it looks. My good friend was accused of similar cheating and i am extremely confident he is innocent (thunder Keller) and he would have played anyone anytime anywhere to prove his side.
exactly

or just sit next to each other with your phones out and play on the app
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:48 AM   #38
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
exactly

or just sit next to each other with your phones out and play on the app
This is the obvious and perhaps only solution.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:04 AM   #39
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Fernando: playing him live has nothing to do with proving whether or not you beat him. If I thought I was one of the best players on earth I would happily take on the normal amount of variance i take on the app to prove a point. Who cares if you win or lose. By refusing to play not on the app you look guilty and foolish.
I think that's kind of bull**** tbh to expect someone to go out of their way to play you live because you think they're cheating. OPs explanation is completely reasonable and nothing can be proven by playing a live session. Nothing wrong with OP putting the issue out in the open, however, and clearing the air. Now he's putting his rep on the line in public and if he is cheating he's basically staking his reputation on it, which IMO makes it much more likely he's legit and just trying to move forward in a reasonable way.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:10 AM   #40
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

i heard the same thing from a few people that natasha would claim they were using a bot and not pay after losing to them, with some jason would end up paying the debt.

this thread is pretty funny because i think jason is owed 1m+ from someone who thinks Jason was using a bot and doesn't want to pay, even presonally reached out to me to try to get this debt paid.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:29 AM   #41
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

seems crazy not to pay unless it was explicitly agreed no one would use any computer assistance before playing
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:47 AM   #42
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

OP, unless there is a debt not being paid, I am not entirely sure I see what you are hoping to have happen from this thread.

The only thing I can say, is if Jason is saying "This guy is cheating and using a bot", then that isnt ok. But if he says "I think this guy is using a bot to play", then he is perfectly within his right to say that. You get a lot of leeway when you use the word think or the phrase in my opinion, so if you are asking for him to stop saying that is his opinion that is not a reasonable ask.

Also, as far as OFC goes, I cannot see the issue with playing a heads up, easily solvable game, on a app, and settling large balances later. I am shocked that so many issues have arisen from this form of "poker".
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Old 02-24-2017, 03:03 AM   #43
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
OP, unless there is a debt not being paid, I am not entirely sure I see what you are hoping to have happen from this thread.

The only thing I can say, is if Jason is saying "This guy is cheating and using a bot", then that isnt ok. But if he says "I think this guy is using a bot to play", then he is perfectly within his right to say that. You get a lot of leeway when you use the word think or the phrase in my opinion, so if you are asking for him to stop saying that is his opinion that is not a reasonable ask.

Also, as far as OFC goes, I cannot see the issue with playing a heads up, easily solvable game, on a app, and settling large balances later. I am shocked that so many issues have arisen from this form of "poker".
We're not talking about OFC, but a variation called OFC pineapple where you draw 3 cards and discard 1, 4 times during the hand, so there is incomplete information. It's definitely not easily solvable.
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Old 02-24-2017, 03:36 AM   #44
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

It seems to me that with enough computing power, one could theoretically just brute force the optimal play in pineapple OFC with simple straightforward code (so in this sense it is easily solvable.) Maybe in practice due to computing restraints this isn't easy, but in terms of complexity of math it seems pretty simple. Not to mention that there are plenty of ways to cut down on required computing power and memory.
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Old 02-24-2017, 05:48 AM   #45
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

why don't you offer Natasha to play live, using the app. That way you get your app benefits but she can have assurance you're not running something on the side.

do it for a decent sample, so she can see the difference between your live and online style.
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:26 AM   #46
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
exactly

or just sit next to each other with your phones out and play on the app
#phonesoutforHarambe
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:36 AM   #47
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

OP...

It's extremely odd to me that you decide to post what you have heard from ppl that I have allegedly said about you, instead of asking me (or Natasha) about this "rumor" that we are spreading. If you have known about this for 5 months as you say, why wouldn't u approach me?

This will likely be my one and only post about this subject. I don't have the time nor the energy to deal with this nonsense. I'm so tired of people calling themselves out and involving me!

I don't think you have a bot, I personally think you are just cheating somehow. A bot would actually lose to a lot of ppl. Even a bot that plays 100% perfect every street would probably lose to 10-15% of the players assuming theses players are pretty good. That's the variance of ofc as u are clearly stating yourself.

It's total nonsense that you are saying that live is very different from playing on the app... It's almost identical besides the subtle differences u stated which just make u appear like u don't know what you are doing. However, the game plays exactly the same way! If you can play live, you can play on the app. And vice versa

Why I think u are somehow cheating...

-No one beats u on the app (at least that I know of, I guess christoph beat u during PCA, maybe you were playing a square game in front of each other or u didn't have access to whatever computer or apparatus you use for cheating ).

-U can't win live- lost at pca. Lost in Vegas. Lost to Natasha in 5 different forms of ofc live

-Natasha has told me massive mistakes you have made live. Such as playing AA88 in the middle and queen high up top while in fantasyland (this was in your first live session). For those of you who aren't familiar with OFC, 88 up top is worth 3 points... This is not a mistake anyone who has any sense of basic basic OFC could even possibly make

-you are begging everyone for app action. Starting games with every person u can find on the app and telling them you would post just to play. It's my opinion that no one would really do this unless they knew they would win.

-offering freerolls to everyone just to get action. Another huge obstacle to overcome through the variance of ofc, but u seemingly are overcoming it.

-you offered Natasha a freeroll if she would get me to play you. I mean LOL

-Natasha asked to see your app lobby and on 2 separate occasions you showed her and you were losing to no one and crushing almost everyone for big numbers

-you tried numerous times to play me (one of the best ofc players in the world, I think?) just by starting a table and offering some ridiculous bet. Like playing me in poker, which I didn't even know if you actually can play poker. Can you? Seemed like a complete freeroll for u because you just know you will beat me on the app. How?

-was told by a player who beat you on the app, that you guys played on the app in front of one another, and you were 30x slower than the pace u normally play on the app which is extremely fast. He had played you before not in front of each other and lost. This is just what I was told. Have no proof

-all the sudden Jacklyn went from having no money (just what I heard) and playing 2$ a point and losing. To wanting to play everyone, posting large sums of money to do so, playing any stakes and beating supposedly everyone - oh this was after you guys started hanging out... U must be a really good coach? Or u are just playing for her? Or shared your app secrets? Or what?

I haven't been actively telling people that I think you are cheating somehow, I just answer my honest opinion when I'm asked. Which has been by about 20-30 different people in the last year, bc you try to play everyone. How good are you dude? Come play the big ofc games live I'm sure you will crush every session. Waiting in Bobby's room for u dude ����

I'll stick with my same old story, I think he's cheating somehow and I have no proof. Don't play him. Don't play Jacklyn. They are REALLY good at the app !

Unfortunately, there is no way to prove you are guilty of anything, and also no way for you to prove you are innocent. Before you went public, I was just trying to protect my friends who asked me for my honest opinion.
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:56 AM   #48
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

OP is shooting himself in the foot. He'll get less action, and not more by trying to convince everyone he's not using a bot. They don't want to play with him because he's using a bot. They don't want to play with him, because he's good, and the bot-defense is cognitive dissonance of amateurs. Learn how to play the game live, and then they'll lose, and are still convinced you're cheating somehow.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 02-24-2017 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:59 AM   #49
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by treysfull21 View Post
OP...

It's extremely odd to me that you decide to post what you have heard from ppl that I have allegedly said about you, instead of asking me (or Natasha) about this "rumor" that we are spreading. If you have known about this for 5 months as you say, why wouldn't u approach me?

This will likely be my one and only post about this subject. I don't have the time nor the energy to deal with this nonsense. I'm so tired of people calling themselves out and involving me!

I don't think you have a bot, I personally think you are just cheating somehow. A bot would actually lose to a lot of ppl. Even a bot that plays 100% perfect every street would probably lose to 10-15% of the players assuming theses players are pretty good. That's the variance of ofc as u are clearly stating yourself.

It's total nonsense that you are saying that live is very different from playing on the app... It's almost identical besides the subtle differences u stated which just make u appear like u don't know what you are doing. However, the game plays exactly the same way! If you can play live, you can play on the app. And vice versa

Why I think u are somehow cheating...

-No one beats u on the app (at least that I know of, I guess christoph beat u during PCA, maybe you were playing a square game in front of each other or u didn't have access to whatever computer or apparatus you use for cheating ).

-U can't win live- lost at pca. Lost in Vegas. Lost to Natasha in 5 different forms of ofc live

-Natasha has told me massive mistakes you have made live. Such as playing AA88 in the middle and queen high up top while in fantasyland (this was in your first live session). For those of you who aren't familiar with OFC, 88 up top is worth 3 points... This is not a mistake anyone who has any sense of basic basic OFC could even possibly make

-you are begging everyone for app action. Starting games with every person u can find on the app and telling them you would post just to play. It's my opinion that no one would really do this unless they knew they would win.

-offering freerolls to everyone just to get action. Another huge obstacle to overcome through the variance of ofc, but u seemingly are overcoming it.

-you offered Natasha a freeroll if she would get me to play you. I mean LOL

-Natasha asked to see your app lobby and on 2 separate occasions you showed her and you were losing to no one and crushing almost everyone for big numbers

-you tried numerous times to play me (one of the best ofc players in the world, I think?) just by starting a table and offering some ridiculous bet. Like playing me in poker, which I didn't even know if you actually can play poker. Can you? Seemed like a complete freeroll for u because you just know you will beat me on the app. How?

-was told by a player who beat you on the app, that you guys played on the app in front of one another, and you were 30x slower than the pace u normally play on the app which is extremely fast. He had played you before not in front of each other and lost. This is just what I was told. Have no proof

-all the sudden Jacklyn went from having no money (just what I heard) and playing 2$ a point and losing. To wanting to play everyone, posting large sums of money to do so, playing any stakes and beating supposedly everyone - oh this was after you guys started hanging out... U must be a really good coach? Or u are just playing for her? Or shared your app secrets? Or what?

I haven't been actively telling people that I think you are cheating somehow, I just answer my honest opinion when I'm asked. Which has been by about 20-30 different people in the last year, bc you try to play everyone. How good are you dude? Come play the big ofc games live I'm sure you will crush every session. Waiting in Bobby's room for u dude ����

I'll stick with my same old story, I think he's cheating somehow and I have no proof. Don't play him. Don't play Jacklyn. They are REALLY good at the app !

Unfortunately, there is no way to prove you are guilty of anything, and also no way for you to prove you are innocent. Before you went public, I was just trying to protect my friends who asked me for my honest opinion.
BOOM!!!!!!
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Old 02-24-2017, 08:01 AM   #50
Cassim
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Re: Jason Mercier spreads unfounded cheating accusations

Quote:
Originally Posted by treysfull21 View Post
OP...

It's extremely odd to me that you decide to post what you have heard from ppl that I have allegedly said about you, instead of asking me (or Natasha) about this "rumor" that we are spreading. If you have known about this for 5 months as you say, why wouldn't u approach me?

This will likely be my one and only post about this subject. I don't have the time nor the energy to deal with this nonsense. I'm so tired of people calling themselves out and involving me!

I don't think you have a bot, I personally think you are just cheating somehow. A bot would actually lose to a lot of ppl. Even a bot that plays 100% perfect every street would probably lose to 10-15% of the players assuming theses players are pretty good. That's the variance of ofc as u are clearly stating yourself.

It's total nonsense that you are saying that live is very different from playing on the app... It's almost identical besides the subtle differences u stated which just make u appear like u don't know what you are doing. However, the game plays exactly the same way! If you can play live, you can play on the app. And vice versa

Why I think u are somehow cheating...

-No one beats u on the app (at least that I know of, I guess christoph beat u during PCA, maybe you were playing a square game in front of each other or u didn't have access to whatever computer or apparatus you use for cheating ).

-U can't win live- lost at pca. Lost in Vegas. Lost to Natasha in 5 different forms of ofc live

-Natasha has told me massive mistakes you have made live. Such as playing AA88 in the middle and queen high up top while in fantasyland (this was in your first live session). For those of you who aren't familiar with OFC, 88 up top is worth 3 points... This is not a mistake anyone who has any sense of basic basic OFC could even possibly make

-you are begging everyone for app action. Starting games with every person u can find on the app and telling them you would post just to play. It's my opinion that no one would really do this unless they knew they would win.

-offering freerolls to everyone just to get action. Another huge obstacle to overcome through the variance of ofc, but u seemingly are overcoming it.

-you offered Natasha a freeroll if she would get me to play you. I mean LOL

-Natasha asked to see your app lobby and on 2 separate occasions you showed her and you were losing to no one and crushing almost everyone for big numbers

-you tried numerous times to play me (one of the best ofc players in the world, I think?) just by starting a table and offering some ridiculous bet. Like playing me in poker, which I didn't even know if you actually can play poker. Can you? Seemed like a complete freeroll for u because you just know you will beat me on the app. How?

-was told by a player who beat you on the app, that you guys played on the app in front of one another, and you were 30x slower than the pace u normally play on the app which is extremely fast. He had played you before not in front of each other and lost. This is just what I was told. Have no proof

-all the sudden Jacklyn went from having no money (just what I heard) and playing 2$ a point and losing. To wanting to play everyone, posting large sums of money to do so, playing any stakes and beating supposedly everyone - oh this was after you guys started hanging out... U must be a really good coach? Or u are just playing for her? Or shared your app secrets? Or what?

I haven't been actively telling people that I think you are cheating somehow, I just answer my honest opinion when I'm asked. Which has been by about 20-30 different people in the last year, bc you try to play everyone. How good are you dude? Come play the big ofc games live I'm sure you will crush every session. Waiting in Bobby's room for u dude ����

I'll stick with my same old story, I think he's cheating somehow and I have no proof. Don't play him. Don't play Jacklyn. They are REALLY good at the app !

Unfortunately, there is no way to prove you are guilty of anything, and also no way for you to prove you are innocent. Before you went public, I was just trying to protect my friends who asked me for my honest opinion.
/thread
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