This is an interesting article that was published last night... links PokerBros to the Chinese and explains that bad poker agents are crediting people money that doesn’t exist.

https://www.facebook.com/10449747760...558797866/?d=n

Excerpt:

Having not learned from Charles Ponzi and Bernard L. Madoff, some PokerBros agents and clubs are effectively running Ponzi schemes in an attempt make more money. They effectively allow players to come in with an unlimited bankroll. How does an unlimited bankroll work? Simply put, the money a player has may not actually exist. A player might have $4,000 in their PokerBros account. However, they never sent their agent $4,000. The agent simply gave them $4,000 to play with expecting that they will win some money and cover that $4,000. If the player wins $2,000 then the agent keeps the $4,000 to settle up and can cash out the player for up to $2,000. But what happens when the player loses all the money? The agent and the player can chase the loss, hoping to make the money back and settle up, of course. However, if someone has won that money and is looking to cash out, the money might not be there. Ponzi schemes collapse because at some point the outflows exceed the inflows, and people cannot get the money they expect.

“I know other agents who don’t actually collect the money from people and credit them deposits,” one source told Poker Uncensored. “It’s not something I do. I get the money on CashApp or Venmo before crediting people. I think some of the agents who have delays in paying out are likely delaying because they need to wait for the money to actually be there to pay out.”

Anyone that plays on these sites without personally knowing and trusting the operator is naive IMO.

ChicagoJoey posted video on twitter yesterday showing inside an Asian grind house where it appears one player is multi-accounting same table.

Despite the sensational title, the article wishes for express federal licensing of online poker in the US, acknowledges that is not happening soon and eventually looks at how to protect yourself and still play poker on Apps .....

The sensational title, citing "China" and "possible" agent fraud does first conclude about PokerBros:

The games are NOT rigged:

"We could not find any hard evidence of rigged play, and we believe that the gameplay on PokerBros is not rigged, and furthermore we confirmed that Gaming Laboratories International did an independent evaluation of PokerBros and certified the randomness, issuing a certification valid until July 2023."

"Beyond Games Limited’s Certificate of Integrity for PokerBros can be viewed at Gaming Laboratories International’s website - https://access.gaminglabs.com/certificate/index?i=331"

Possibility of dishonest agents not collecting deposits from their players:

The article takes issue with potentially dishonest agents not collecting deposits from players then paying their players, citing past dishonesty of agents ofering services other poker apps, such as NYPokerKing.

“Adnan ‘NYPokerKing’ Mohammad Owes $84K on PPPoker App.” Professional RakeBack. https://professionalrakeback.com/ppp...lub-fai…

Basically, the author proposes a solution that sounds familiar:

1. "First, online poker needs to be made fully legal across the United States."

This is something the Author concludes is not at hand: "Unfortunately, the full legalization of online poker/gaming in the United States is something that seems far off. Lobbyists for some of the brick and mortar casinos continue to oppose competition from online poker/gaming. "


2. The author continues, "Second, to prevent any loss of player money, there should be a mandate that all player funds be kept segregated and separate from money used to fund operations of the poker website/application."

However, the free-to-play apps, whether PokerBros or another app cannot themselves be used to gamble, unless some agent offers players to underwrite the action. This decentralized industry has to rely on the market, not a centralized "mandate". For any player, lnowing your agent is key.

3.Know Your Agent: A player should be careful which game operator, or "union" he plays on and what agent provides him with deposit and cashout services. The agent is the person underwrites the actual game a player might play in.

"Have a local poker agent that you personally know. It’s much safer to have your poker agent be someone local to you that others have worked with and can report a good experience on, and who you can find in the event of an issue. "

"Don’t be afraid to quit a poker club. If you suspect something is wrong or corrupt in a PokerBros club or union that you are a part of, tell your agent you need to cash out and get your money. There are many clubs competing for customers." that use the PokerBros app.

The sensational headline, about "China" and possibly dishonest agents, concludes with the author's advice that play poker in the absence of US federal legislation legalizing the game across the US, a player needs to know your agent"

Knowing your agent is super key. I actually managed to get lucky and found one that lives in the same city as me and I know his full name. Stranger agents are hit or miss and the miss is pretty -EV

As the axiom goes, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In fact, we do have precedent here with online sites utilizing Super Users and countless others utilizing multiple accounts to collude on their own in cash games or with partners. There was a Twitter post by ChicagoJoey today which should another example of what occurs in the online cash grind.

Now you have this evidence of improprieties with foreign licenses sites who have actual individuals attached to them. Yet everyone is quick to trust the activities of an app where they have the ownership/profit center so disguised that an in-depth investigation cannot produce one single name connected to the app. Nope, no red flags there.

Did you read the investigation report ?

That in-depth investigation actually stated it believed PokerBros games were not rigged and had been certified by Gaming Laboratories Int'l.:

"As a part of our investigation, Poker Uncensored looked into accusations of rigged gameplay. We could not find any hard evidence of rigged play, and w[U]e believe that the gameplay on PokerBros is not rigged, and furthermore we confirmed that Gaming Laboratories International did an independent evaluation of PokerBros and certified the randomness, issuing a certification valid until July 2023."

You do not accept a GLI certification as "evidence" that the game is NOT rigged ? This issue is not an instance where someone is making the axiomatic religious argument you cite, like proving the existence of God. . There was actual testing of the app, done by a highly reputed industry lab.

The Agent system

Yes, the investigation advises players on any app to know their agents, the folks who collect and pay out player money .... That is good advice, worth repeating ....

Know Your Agent.

People will get what ever the deserve with the sketchy sites. I wish everyone the best of luck.

uhh this describes credit... Its a pretty common practice on agent sites and for me the main draw to play on them. Why put money upfront when I can run credit? Doesnt mean its a ponzi scheme, its still being paid and on bros all chips are prepaid its just the agent covering upfront

I accept that for "certification" purposes the site will pass any test. How would this "certification" process identify collusion when we know how simple it is to multi-account and/or partner next to a friend? Are you saying that collusion absolutely doesn't occur in online cash? Any of us can log on, set up accounts and begin colluding in about 20 minutes.

"Maybe" it could prevent a Super User account but I don't have evidence that it would.

Where is contact info for the agents? I am a perfect candidate for a Ponzi scheme. As investor - idiot or as loser - credited player

So they use a random generator to deal and the deck isnt rigged - you realize that isnt the problem or even in the top 3 or do you not play online?

How to identify a mark:
They feel lucky that they found a bookie.

Pretty tough to scam someone by sending their requested withdrawal amount in minutes, which is what I came back to this thread to report. Worst scammer ever

I don't think they meant just know his name is actually being able to trust him lol

From what I've been told, the agent will be on the hook for bad debt or essentially be forced to close up shop. So don't use an agent that's super sketch, true. But if one of their buddies has lots of money, they'll often give them a limit of say 1-10k (depending on the agents discretion), and front them the money and settle up later. You are indeed putting a lot of trust in the agent to actually manage all the money, cover bad debts, and make estimates of credit limits, true. If you get a bad vibe, or think the guy is fronting too much cash to too many people, I'd bounce.

You nay not like it or understand it, but credit is the lifeblood of gambling. The "agents" are giving the players credit, credit does not equal ponzi scheme though, credit = credit risk its up to the person to decide what the risks are and if they are worth it. Its not always easy and i see people (and i include myself in this) who you think should know better make mistakes frequently.

I know a lot of people will say "its gambling, bring your money and dont gamble more than that" cant massively argue with the logic but there would be a lot less gambling going on if credit was never a thing.

My personal advice (not that anyone asked) would be to be very nitty with credit risk, if you think someone is 99% trustworthy change it to 95% and decide if still worth it based on that, start small with people you dont know and build relationships, and most importantly...if in doubt, get out.

I hope you have a better read on your opponents in a poker game than you do of posters on a forum.

The reason these games are so soft is the same reason FTP Pros used to flip for $100k.

These sites will inevitably go bust, there's no if about it. If you can get out before that happens, great. But PokerBros won't be bought and players paid out, so don't whine when it happens. You know what you're in for.

I have personally been granted credit on one of these sites that my agent would have absolutely zero chance of recovering if I was to not pay it (ofcourse I did).

Not saying your wrong but what happens when a bank issues a loan? Just because a situation can be abused does not mean it will be. In order for it to collapse a multitude of agents would have to continue operating without receiving payment and accept continually adding to their deficits. The Full Tilt meltdown required a trigger and this situation is different in that the agents would be aware that they are in the red and will eventually have to square up whereas Full Tilt could have operated indefinitely if the funds had not been frozen and the site forced to shut down and balance the books.

This is, by the way, obviously bullshit. Most big sites have operated for decades without giving credit. PokerStars, PartyPoker, etc. etc. In fact, the one site that, through bugs/sloppy operational execution had a backlog, with deposits being reversed, was Full Tilt Poker.

The trigger of Full Tilt Poker was "credit" created by deposits that weren't covered.

As for the other argument: A bank a) has more and better way to enforce repayment and b) most banks either went bankrupt (Lehman Brothers) or were bailed out because too many people defaulted on bad loans. That's, in fact, the cause of the last financial crisis.

As long as rake covers the funds lost by bad actors, theoretically the site can keep operating. But one bad agent can cause massive financial damage (give a whale 400k in credit that he doesn't pay and that's a lot of rake to cover that ****). Additionally, bad practices are inherently rewarded by the system and cover ups are inherently rewarded for the site, which multiplies the risks.

I'm not saying don't play there, I've been playing on these sites a bit. I'm saying, there will eventually be Lehman Brothers and no one to bail them out.

If you start hearing large winning players complaining about getting kicked or their winnings "disputed", expect that that's a way of the site recovering losses caused by bad actors.

ChicagoJoey posted video on twitter yesterday showing inside an Asian grind house where it appears one player is multi-accounting same table.[/QUOTE]

Yes, alot is being exposed about poker bros lately. Enough to where I left all my clubs. Run deep in the 100k play solid for 6 hours 200/3256 left itm. Pick up kings blinds very high, its now bingo even with 1mil + in chips villain with not much more then me snap calls with A4 flop AA4. 🤢 not to mention was out of position for that hand to, **** like this happens every time getting close to the bigger payouts.

Ppp poker was being exposed as frauds players weren't playing as much. Then poker bros comes out "claiming fairness in the rng" players come back.

Are we about to see another clone launch due to the bad press as of lately about poker bros. Also what is up with the BBJ going off constantly on Sunday when its at about 165,000 seems almost timed.🤔

I’d be more worried about that app getting shut down and then having to rely on the agent to refund your remaining balance.

Wrong. It's just not publicly offered or spoken about. Credit absolutely exists for certain players.

There is an upside to the risk involved with playing on PokerBros. Risk averse players, which are more likely to be winners, avoid the app entirely which helps keeps the games soft.

Some say "risk averse" while others would say "smart"...it's probably only a matter of time before something goes bad.