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Old 05-11-2017, 04:22 AM   #101
cpar1
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

In addition to the article being poorly written, I don't think someone should ever be writing content about a poker player's losses when there's absolutely no way for them to know what their actual situation is. I think writing about upswings and accomplishments is great but when part of your job is to kick people when they're down for clickbait $$ you deserve to get slapped.

The person who wrote this wouldn't beat Dani at HUPLO with 8 cards vs his 4 fwiw...
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:37 AM   #102
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Hilarious thread, good work all. Makes a nice change to NVG with all the 'xyz is closing' and 'Amaya is stealing more rake off us' threads that have dominated 2017.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:37 AM   #103
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
What he's doing is being a gossip columnist, not being a journalist which is why I recommended it be in quotations. It's also extraordinarily convenient that there was a thread started on the exact same premise a few days ago. It's total trash.
Gossip:

casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details which are not confirmed as true.

If the facts are correct then its not gossip is it? Im confused.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:07 AM   #104
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
I'd say that unless Stern has very deep pockets and is trying to improve his game by his choice of the toughest opponents around, then at some point it's got to be worrying. :/
Had no issue with the article, but this is pretty bad. As someone who writes about nosebleed poker games, you know there's a decent chance Dani doesn't have all his action. I don't know this to be true, but to intimate that he lost the gross figure he is down and better have pretty deep pockets is pretty disingenuous. We all have no idea how much it's cost him.

Also, as someone pointed out above, there may be sample size issue before you decide who's a better HUPLO player.

Last edited by AdamSchwartz; 05-11-2017 at 05:08 AM. Reason: oops you didn't write article, but points still stand
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:11 AM   #105
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi hedgecock:

Are you really a poker journalist? I find it difficult to believe that a journalist would write a post quite like this.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
Hi Mason,

Yes, I am indeed a poker journalist!
.
Do not believe you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Speaking hypothetically, when you respond in a professional manner it'll reflect positively on you and often negatively on the obnoxious poster. However, when you respond in an unprofessional manner it'll often only reflect negatively on you.
Journalism 101. He is not a journalist, so he would not know that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
OK, big man, here's your NVG challenge for the day...

Pretend you're a poker journalist, you have to write content, you noticed Dani Stern is getting humped badly by Berri Sweet (or your editor tells you).

You have to write 500 words on this, and make it informative, entertaining and as factually correct as possible.

In real life you'd have an hour for this max. I'll give you 24 hours...GO!

Remember, you're going to be judged on this tomorrow
Another clear dead give away that you are not a journalist is that you said:
you noticed Dani Stern is getting humped badly by Berri Sweet (or your editor tells you)

Quite simply put, no journalist, at least any journalist worth ones salt, is gonna think "humped" is an appropriate word choice in the context. Once again, hedgecock, you are not a journalist, you have been exposed.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:12 AM   #106
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I question whether it's okay to write entertainment type articles at the expense of hurting someone's reputation. However, when reading this particular article, I don't find it that bad. The one question that I would have is how large is the standard deviation (or put another way, how large are the swings) relative to the true win rate in a game like this?

I'm not very familiar with high stakes heads-up PLO but suspect that this loss may not be as bad as the absolute numbers sound, and that's because I suspect the win rate for the better player is probably relatively small while the short term luck factor is probably extremely high. Perhaps that should have been pointed out in the article.

Best wishes,
Mason
Hi Mason

You're right about the variance. HU PLO has huge variance and a $1.3m (now a $1.46m downswing after last night actually) isn't particularly shocking and to be fair I didn't ever say it was - it's still a noticeable loss.

I guess I did suggest that perhaps Dani might want to consider not playing BERRI HU so much as he loses almost all their matches, and often more than 5 BI a time. Obviously I don't have a big enough sample to say who is better, it was just an observation.

As I said in other replies, had this loss been 3-4 years ago I would barely have noticed it, its just that getting enough hands in at these stakes to win that sort of money at one game (Dani plays PLO exclusively) is really tough. When the games ran all day everyday and the poker economy was awash with sponsorship and Guy Laliberte cash, a seven-figure PLO downswing was nothing - in fact it was often a daily occurrence. These days, unless Isildur1 is on an upswing it's very rare to see that kind of money being splashed about and considering the best players won't generally even play each other, it is even tougher to find it.

Apart from questioning his game selection (an observation for which I have been suitably flamed) at no point have I criticised Dani or implied he isn't a very good PLO player. Me postulating that perhaps he might at some point move down in stakes isn't me saying he's busto or that he's not good enough for bigger games - lots of big name high stakes players drop down for a while if they either can't get the games they want or want to rebuild. Also, Dani has done this in the past and spoken about it - had he not l wouldn't have even mentioned it.

The title of the article should probably have said "losing quicker than Gus" to be fair, but I think a lot of these posts saying that I have made out Dani is a bad player are as misleading as the article title.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:02 AM   #107
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by AdamSchwartz View Post
Had no issue with the article, but this is pretty bad. As someone who writes about nosebleed poker games, you know there's a decent chance Dani doesn't have all his action. I don't know this to be true, but to intimate that he lost the gross figure he is down and better have pretty deep pockets is pretty disingenuous. We all have no idea how much it's cost him.

Also, as someone pointed out above, there may be sample size issue before you decide who's a better HUPLO player.
I get your point completely Adam, but as no-one here seems able to say what size a good bankroll is for this game I don't think I'm being 'disingenuous'?

Let's say you have $5mill behind you of your own money and backers money, and you're down over 20% of that with no sign of the downswing turning around? All I'm really saying is that it must be worrying at some point, no?

Maybe I'm wrong - I've already said I'm not an expert on nosebleed HUPLO (I'm not an expert on any form of poker!) but the views of someone who has played at or near those stakes would be useful.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:06 AM   #108
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by lioncub View Post
Hi Mason

You're right about the variance. HU PLO has huge variance and a $1.3m (now a $1.46m downswing after last night actually) isn't particularly shocking and to be fair I didn't ever say it was - it's still a noticeable loss.

I guess I did suggest that perhaps Dani might want to consider not playing BERRI HU so much as he loses almost all their matches, and often more than 5 BI a time. Obviously I don't have a big enough sample to say who is better, it was just an observation.

As I said in other replies, had this loss been 3-4 years ago I would barely have noticed it, its just that getting enough hands in at these stakes to win that sort of money at one game (Dani plays PLO exclusively) is really tough. When the games ran all day everyday and the poker economy was awash with sponsorship and Guy Laliberte cash, a seven-figure PLO downswing was nothing - in fact it was often a daily occurrence. These days, unless Isildur1 is on an upswing it's very rare to see that kind of money being splashed about and considering the best players won't generally even play each other, it is even tougher to find it.

Apart from questioning his game selection (an observation for which I have been suitably flamed) at no point have I criticised Dani or implied he isn't a very good PLO player. Me postulating that perhaps he might at some point move down in stakes isn't me saying he's busto or that he's not good enough for bigger games - lots of big name high stakes players drop down for a while if they either can't get the games they want or want to rebuild. Also, Dani has done this in the past and spoken about it - had he not l wouldn't have even mentioned it.

The title of the article should probably have said "losing quicker than Gus" to be fair, but I think a lot of these posts saying that I have made out Dani is a bad player are as misleading as the article title.
Hi lion:

I would have written this article very differently if it was my intention to write something like this at all. First off, I don't know Dani Stern, but I think it's clear that he's a very good player. So why write anything that some might interpret differently from this. My approach would have been to emphasize the fluctuations that can occur in these high stakes heads-up PLO games.

For instance, a better title might be something like "Is this Downswing Just a Fluctuation," and then built an article around the idea that in high stakes games filled with experts, the true winrate of the best player can still be very small while the standard deviation can be very high and this is a sure formula for occasional big swings, and inaddition, this effect can be exxagerated in heads-up matches.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:06 AM   #109
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by X9s View Post
Exactly.


Do not believe you.


Journalism 101. He is not a journalist, so he would not know that.




Another clear dead give away that you are not a journalist is that you said:
you noticed Dani Stern is getting humped badly by Berri Sweet (or your editor tells you)

Quite simply put, no journalist, at least any journalist worth ones salt, is gonna think "humped" is an appropriate word choice in the context. Once again, hedgecock, you are not a journalist, you have been exposed.
Thanks for that X9s, your contribution and insight has been duly noted. 20+ posters can write whatever they like about the article using whatever language, I can't say 'humped'. Got it now. Good to know.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:24 AM   #110
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Dani paid him to write that article so he could get more action from players lower down on the totem pole again...
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:53 AM   #111
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

your site is called highstakesdb and your criticising one of the two players that are battling it out regularly.

hopefully they stop playing and you can keep us updated on how many times noori has been sick after eating 100$ worth of nuggets
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:09 AM   #112
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpar1 View Post
In addition to the article being poorly written, I don't think someone should ever be writing content about a poker player's losses when there's absolutely no way for them to know what their actual situation is. I think writing about upswings and accomplishments is great but when part of your job is to kick people when they're down for clickbait $$ you deserve to get slapped.

The person who wrote this wouldn't beat Dani at HUPLO with 8 cards vs his 4 fwiw...
What you are advocating for is not "reporting," but press releases.

p.s. -- After your effort above, you should probably refrain from criticizing the writing ability of others. Is English your first-language?

Last edited by restorativejustice; 05-11-2017 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:15 AM   #113
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by lioncub View Post
Nope. Haven't seen the thread. But yes, very occasionally we, like pretty much every other poker entertainment website, find a story from poker forums because people who play poker and know stuff about poker sometimes break news on poker forums.

Weird huh?
You miss the main point. You were scooped on a story that came out of your own house.

**long wall of text agreeing with all the negative comments about poker journalists just being copywriters regurgitating things people already know to get clicks**
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:50 PM   #114
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
The OP comes in shouting his mouth off and fails to even explain what his problem with the article was? He's a retard until he proves otherwise.

Self-reporting in NVG? Sure, it's fine if you can sift through all the ****e to get the golden nuggets, and that's basically what poker journalists try to do. Take information, check it, and turn it into something readable. Same with social media - sort the wheat from the chaff and then use social media to get stories to a wider public.

Is it always high-quality? No, of course not, like every other 'industry'. Is it always correct, or objective? Again no, and again why is journalism different?

The headline sh*t for brains. I already answered it earlier. You did a much better job of plagiarizing your article from the other thread than you did researching my follow up posts.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:59 PM   #115
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by YaAaRnY View Post
your site is called highstakesdb and your criticising one of the two players that are battling it out regularly.

hopefully they stop playing and you can keep us updated on how many times noori has been sick after eating 100$ worth of nuggets
Are you implying you hope they stop playing just to spite HSDB? Lmao

Nice work and thanks for the articles HSDB
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:02 PM   #116
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

How high would Dani be ranked in HU PLO? is he top 10? Also who is Berri Sweet, name, location etc?
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #117
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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The headline sh*t for brains. I already answered it earlier. You did a much better job of plagiarizing your article from the other thread than you did researching my follow up posts.
He didn't write the article.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:22 PM   #118
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
I get your point completely Adam, but as no-one here seems able to say what size a good bankroll is for this game I don't think I'm being 'disingenuous'?
The above sentence showcases your understanding of the game of poker really. Not to be mean but come on...
If you're a losing player you need an "infinite buy-ins bankroll". If you play Hu and your opponent is folding every hand preflop you need a 1BB bankroll.
If you wanna know how many buy-ins you need as a winning player, you need to know your winrate, your standard dev in the game at hand and the risk of ruin you're ready to go with,then you can calculate how many BI you're going to need.
So no, noone will tell you how many buyins you need for these types of games because : it depends (tada!). Not 'even to mention that your winrate and the std dev are not fixed numbers, they change over time (even more true when 2competent players play each other). Noone will ever be able to answer your question without data because, it's not some magical number you can pull out of your head on a sunny morning and be like "yes thats it" ... no, it's math. So no i wouldn't have said disingenuous, I feel sorry but can't help to think you genuinely don't know what you're talking about.


Also @ lion, what makes the article tabloid-ish is the fact that for entertainment purposes you're ok writing something at the detriment of someone. I could alaso point out the click-baity title but it's already been adressed.
It's true that none of what you said isn't fact but the logic behind it is fallacious, as someone pointed out if I sit at NL100 and lose 100b on the 1st hand, is it correct to say I'm losing quicker than Gus ? Well factually yes. But does that make it the Truth? Prob not.

It actually reminds me of this for some reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpe...anging_paradox
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:22 PM   #119
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

I don't see anything too offensive or off about the article.

DaniStern/Supernova plays high stakes...he plays pretty good players, he's been losing a fair bit of money...if he continues to lose money by playing very good players he likely won't be playing high stakes any more. (correction: is somewhat likely, maybe lol)

He obviously hasn't lost more than Gus, but at a faster rate I suppose. Obviously there's variance, but in terms of what's actually happened...well he's lost money.

Quote:
but one thing's for sure, if he doesn't execute a pretty rapid turnaround in his results his bankroll isn't going to look too pretty
Eh, this is not "for sure".

I like how the end of the article is on a hopeful note though :

"Hopefully the fortunes of supernova9 will pick up soon and we'll get to see him engaging in some more great high stakes PLO matches over at PokerStars."

Last edited by rakemeplz; 05-11-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:28 PM   #120
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Often times writers are forming narratives around things they may not have a thorough or completely factual understanding of IMO...if someone loses a million dollars playing high stakes poker, I feel its at least reasonable to speculate that they may have bankroll difficulties enough to force them to stop playing high stakes poker 3BH.

"As someone who writes about nosebleed poker games, you know there's a decent chance Dani doesn't have all his action. I don't know this to be true, but to intimate that he lost the gross figure he is down and better have pretty deep pockets is pretty disingenuous. We all have no idea how much it's cost him."

Yeah its definitely highly probably even that he's backed to one degree or another, at some point its possible his backers will see his results (even short term variance induced ones) and decide not to back him at high stakes games vs presumably very good players. Or maybe not I don't know what I'm talking about, and don't write these articles, ha.

Last edited by rakemeplz; 05-11-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:55 PM   #121
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuit View Post
The above sentence showcases your understanding of the game of poker really. Not to be mean but come on...
If you're a losing player you need an "infinite buy-ins bankroll". If you play Hu and your opponent is folding every hand preflop you need a 1BB bankroll.
If you wanna know how many buy-ins you need as a winning player, you need to know your winrate, your standard dev in the game at hand and the risk of ruin you're ready to go with,then you can calculate how many BI you're going to need.
So no, noone will tell you how many buyins you need for these types of games because : it depends (tada!). Not 'even to mention that your winrate and the std dev are not fixed numbers, they change over time (even more true when 2competent players play each other). Noone will ever be able to answer your question without data because, it's not some magical number you can pull out of your head on a sunny morning and be like "yes thats it" ... no, it's math. So no i wouldn't have said disingenuous, I feel sorry but can't help to think you genuinely don't know what you're talking about.


Also @ lion, what makes the article tabloid-ish is the fact that for entertainment purposes you're ok writing something at the detriment of someone. I could alaso point out the click-baity title but it's already been adressed.
It's true that none of what you said isn't fact but the logic behind it is fallacious, as someone pointed out if I sit at NL100 and lose 100b on the 1st hand, is it correct to say I'm losing quicker than Gus ? Well factually yes. But does that make it the Truth? Prob not.

It actually reminds me of this for some reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpe...anging_paradox
Nice first post

I'm well aware that there's no 'one-size fits all' bankroll for any poker game, but if people are going to say it's normal variance in HUPLO but not agree that it might be worrying in real terms, then at least have a stab at what Dani Stern's bankroll might be for the game without having to drop down in stakes at some point?

So, no, I'm not expecting anyone to give an exact figure, as I know it's not possible - but a ballpark estimate? Based on personal experience? Or what other players in similar games have had behind them? Is it just down to variance or is Stern not as good as Berri Sweet?

Instead of being ignorant and offensive (or condescending in your case) why not just try to discuss some of the more interesting points? My guess is that most of the posters in this thread have even less of a clue about this story than I do
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:23 PM   #122
Nuit
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

So I guess you were being disingenuous after all? ^^

It's the general consensus that 40buy-ins swings are quite common in PLO even when playing 6max against all fun players. So heads up and against a tough opponent it's super standard. Which means we don't know whether Dani or Berri is the longterm winner here.

We could even argue that the two interested can't be too sure themselves. Knowing that I can't see how you could expect anyone to give you an approximation of the bankroll needed for such game.
It's probably infinitely many buy-ins for one of them and A LOT for the other guy.

Sorry if I came off as patronizing as it wasn't my intention but really I think asking that question is quite silly for someone who allegedly have a clue.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:51 PM   #123
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

NEWS FLASH: poker player loses somewhere between 20-40BI's at POT LIMIT OMAHA
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:06 PM   #124
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Guys if we just start being nice to these amazingly talented writers, I'm sure they'll listen to our complaints with an open mind and adjust their methods for future articles. Oh, and I'm sure they're NOT bringing up the nasty tone of the responses they're getting simply to divert attention away from how terrible they are at their jobs. Because they're amazingly talented and wonderful people. Yep.


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Old 05-11-2017, 03:25 PM   #125
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Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuit View Post
So I guess you were being disingenuous after all? ^^

It's the general consensus that 40buy-ins swings are quite common in PLO even when playing 6max against all fun players. So heads up and against a tough opponent it's super standard. Which means we don't know whether Dani or Berri is the longterm winner here.

We could even argue that the two interested can't be too sure themselves. Knowing that I can't see how you could expect anyone to give you an approximation of the bankroll needed for such game.
It's probably infinitely many buy-ins for one of them and A LOT for the other guy.

Sorry if I came off as patronizing as it wasn't my intention but really I think asking that question is quite silly for someone who allegedly have a clue.
It's cool, but I never claimed to have a clue about HU PLO (or any PLO) in the first place Having read a bit more just now on the actual level of variance in PLO I realise just how ridiculous it is.

I spotted (in an old thread on here) people talking of 200-500BI, not as standard, but certainly in some situations, which kind of shocks me.

I guess the $1.3 or $1.5million Stern has lost recently is just a scarily big number for me personally (when people start to talk about it as probably being down to variance, and it's not even close to leveling out).

Anyway, don't think I'll be playing much PLO, but will try to get a better understanding of it in case I have to write something about it. Thanks nuit and the others who actually wrote decent posts
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