FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP) - Page 9 - Poker News

Diamond_Flush · 08-26-2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by munkey

The Colorful Cast of Characters Part I: Ira Rubin

thanks for the detailed article Diamond_Flush over @ Subject:Poker
He certainly is a rogue colourful character , but when you have a grey prohibition legal situation the more Mos Eisley type people will get involved

So far I have these questions, if you or anyone else wouldn't mind answering:

re: relief defendant

Is this a bit like innocently unknowingly buying/receiving stolen goods and having to forfeit the property but exempt from prosecution (unless the crown/state prosecutor can show you knew or paid cheaply)?

Would this apply to the top-tier FTP shareholders with no day to day management of the company, if they received 'dividends'/renumerations when FTP was below AGCC liquidity ratios and these funds were therefore not disgorged from profits?

I understand the criminal part but what civil offense is committed in this event and what remedies does the civil court have at it's disposal?
Maybe I'm just tired and being slow

Ok, so everyone knows I am not a lawyer and I defer always to those that are, but I found the following a very good explantion for the layperson regarding relief defendants. http://www.abiworld.org/committees/n...defrauded.html

Typically, as I understand it, there can be no unjust enrichment, nor can a third party play the part of laundering the proceeds, even if seemingly unknowingly. This is also where the use of a constructive trust can come into play.

This is also the reason, I think, that during a bankruptcy or other proceeding,before rendering the final adjudication, that certain transactions, sales of property etc, going back for a specified period of time, would be reversed. Same as in the USA, when the elderly are committed to health care facilities for the rest of their lives in exchange for their possessions, anything they tried to transfer to thier kids etc, to avoid giving it up, reverts back to the persons living estate.This used to be a 2 year timeline, now I think its 5 years.

The reason I mention the latter, is because I think that would also apply in the case of FTP at this time. Even if the DOJ was found to have no standing in the Irish court, certain transactions could be reversed if they happened in some period of time prior to the filing of the bankruptcy.

Finally as to the civil/criminal thing... in the case of FTP...if someone was told by the court to hand over document XYZ and they did not, that would be a civil infraction. OTOH, they have been served with specific restraining orders forbidding anyone touching in any way, certain properties, bank accounts etc. By anyone, I mean anyone in a far reaching sense. If someone were found to have violated that restraining order (forbidden action), they could be facing criminal charges.
This is my citing: Popular Bank of Florida v Banco Popular De Puerto Rico, 180 F.R.D. 461.465 (S.D.Fla.1998): see also US v Cable News Network Inc. 865 F. Supp 1549 (S.D.Fla. 1994)

Again, I defer to the legal ppl who know this stuff much better than I

MMD · 08-26-2011, 04:38 PM

Are we still waiting on the questions/answers or have I missed them?

Diamond_Flush · 08-26-2011, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT RJ

Holy ****, this guy is a long term con man and scammer.

Lol, for the record, his shady background goes back a lot farther than just the last few years I gave a glimpse of. I had to stop, or it could easily have been 20,000+ words.

elstunar · 08-26-2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMD

Are we still waiting on the questions/answers or have I missed them?

i thought they were supposed to be out yesterday, but i guess not, idk when they're coming out...anybody have an update on this? ifrah?

Diamond_Flush · 08-26-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PartyGirlUK

If Ifrah claims that FTP can not release certain figures due to confidentiality issues with the DOJ, who is the right person at the DOJ to email to confirm if this is/isn't true?

If you are talking about the value of bank accounts on the seized list, they won't release that info yet, because technically it is not yet property of the Government. It's still in limbo until the Judge actually grants the forfeiture.

Once that happens, its all public information. (Example...all those banks accounts that were seized in 2009 on the list attached to this case have actual amounts. Those properties had already been transferred to the goverment).

Fwiw, FOIA does not apply yet for the above reason.

momo_the_kid · 08-26-2011, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

Agreed, Noah your post comes off really weirdly and with no substance it just sounds egotistical (not implying that was the intention). What do you mean 'you' don't want that? Why don't you want the DoJ to hear from American citizens? It has no risk of hurting so what exactly is your purpose in claiming you don't want them bugging the DoJ? Just seems bizarre.

To the above, it has virtually no risk of hurting things, and the DoJ does have at least some concern for public opinion and taxpayer interests.

Agree. DOJ needs to be bugged to be reminded that they should try their best to protect American citizens' interest in this mess. I just dont think it will make the situation any worse than it is now.
And I think AGCC needs to be bugged too and sued if players cant get their money. Those idiots pulled the plug from FTP at the worst possible time to save their own ass. Otherwise we may already have a deal by now.

**SGT RJ** · 08-26-2011, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakipdsa

what do u mean u dont want anyone to bug the DOJ? are u the boss?

To be fair, NoahSD is pretty boss all around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diamond_Flush

Lol, for the record, his shady background goes back a lot farther than just the last few years I gave a glimpse of. I had to stop, or it could easily have been 20,000+ words.

Figures as much, people like that don't usually just wake up one morning and say, "You know what? Today I'm going to just start ****ing people over for money."

Scumbags gunna scumbag and all that jazz.

MMD · 08-26-2011, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elstunar

i thought they were supposed to be out yesterday, but i guess not, idk when they're coming out...anybody have an update on this? ifrah?

Yeah I eventually crashed out sometime last night waiting for them.

Hopefully soon.

ZFC · 08-26-2011, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gradx

Those bonuses were for depositing more money into FTP's coffers, most of which wouldn't be returned anyway. All it did was raise money, increase their traffic, generate revenue, effectively raising their hold % of deposit to payouts.

And regarding Stars VIP program, yes it was a form of rakeback but only realistic for heavy grinders who put in enough volume. Those grinders would create traffic that the recreational player would see as an opportunity to play.

I wasn't talking for sign up/reload bonuses but for the value of promotions related to FTP points/Iron Man etc. These essentially translate to over 40% RB for most regs which can be beaten at Stars but as you point out only by heavy grinders. Both systems were designed so that you rip the benefits only after being loyal to the site for a period of time and for Stars from the second year on. As a result migrating from Stars to FTP or the other way would mean loosing "value" for most regs, at least in the short term.

FTP offered a special Rush Poker bonus the last week before the went down as if they wanted to steal as much they could even the last moment.

Even a micro-stakes grinder was generating over 10K in rake over a year. It's not only the money, its the way they treat us and the time we wasted there when there wasn't going to be any return. It's CRIMINAL what they did.
-

coduresa · 08-26-2011, 05:10 PM

Noah puts so much time and energy into recovering our funds,and he is not getting a single cent for it.
He has a lot of information about the whole subject and if he thinks it is not a good idea to contact the DOJ I am sure he has got a reason to do so.I am sure he didn't really wanted it to sound like an order,so please don't give him a hard time,without him we would be off far worse.

Bene Gesserit · 08-26-2011, 05:17 PM

FTP $128 million in uncleared US deposits? $ Only $9 million recoverable? News, or am I just uninformed? Earlier talk said $60 million and "most" or "much" recovered I thought! Wow that is a lot of shortfall if true. Article on Subject Poker now! This seems fairly significant to them not being as flush just prior to BFs DOJ grab!

novahunterpa · 08-26-2011, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit

FTP $128 million in uncleared US deposits? $ Only $9 million recoverable? News, or am I just uninformed? Earlier talk said $60 million and "most" or "much" recovered I thought! Wow that is a lot of shortfall if true. Article on Subject Poker now! This seems fairly significant to them not being as flush just prior to BFs DOJ grab!

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/08/...y-much-larger/

Prospace · 08-26-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momo_the_kid

Agree. DOJ needs to be bugged to be reminded that they should try their best to protect American citizens' interest in this mess. I just dont think it will make the situation any worse than it is now.
And I think AGCC needs to be bugged too and sued if players cant get their money. Those idiots pulled the plug from FTP at the worst possible time to save their own ass. Otherwise we may already have a deal by now.

I think we need to make the DOJ know that will will not sit around while they have OUR money confiscated. They know very well that it is players money. Secondly, the DOJ needs to be investigated by it's own inspector general. I think an investigation into Jon Kyl, Harry Reid, Caesars, NFL and their lobbyist will reveal blatant bribery and corruption. We need to organize to file 2 complaints, one with senate over site committee and one with the Inspector General. I see no reason to blindly hope for regulation and think that the PPA is looking out for your interests. They are looking out for Caesars and large corporations not for freedom.

Go Get It · 08-26-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novahunterpa

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/08/...y-much-larger/

So they are short $119M, and they are considering getting some of that back by taking it out of players accounts?

Or they are short $128M and they are thinking they could get at most $9M back from taking it out of players accounts?

Either way, I really hate FTP. It looks like the people who had to deposit, unknowingly, caused the shortfall problem because FTP was ****ing stupid and greedy.

Diamond_Flush · 08-26-2011, 05:28 PM

Seriously just think about it. To date, the DOJ, while they arent releasing certain information for various legal and strategic reasons, they have been pretty decent about taking the phonecalls. I seriously doubt that most ppl in this thread have some very specific question that hasn't already been asked. Why should there be 300 people calling the same person with the same questions? All you will accomplish is having the guy on the other end of the phone say enough already, and close the communication down completely. Anyone of course, is free to do whatever they want to, but a little common sense goes a long way.