FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)

[Onchan]

Pokouz... plenty of people have asked this.

I've read every post and every press release, and this is the question that has not been answered "Where are the ROW player balances coming from?"

Possible answers;

1. Tapie's pocket.
2. Tapie's co-investors, if they exist.
3. DOJ and banks will release funds to FTP2.
4. Shareholders will kick in some money.
5. Some will get shares in FTP2 but no money.
6. Some will get deferred payments (e.g. maybe Italy / France players) or annuities

And the answers nobody wants to admit are also possibilities;

7. Some players will NOT get repaid.

My own opinion is as follows;
- There is no 300m to cover ROW, so
- Tapie will use options 5 and 6 where possible
- Tapie will use option 6 for terretories where he won't get a licence immediately (about 50% of ROW)
- Tapie may use option 7 for terretories where he will never get a licence (France)
- I also think that FTP will find an excuse to close as many accounts as possible for breaches of T&C. Multi-accounting? Chargeback? Colluding? Incorrect contact info? Abusive chat? VPN use? I would imagine you could save a lot by burning everyone who did a teeny tiny breach of the TOCs. Perhaps even some pro's, affiliates and stakers.

[WelshChip]

Why do you think French players will NOT get repaid ONCHAN? Why do you think he will NEVER get a French license?

[Wizzard89]

Originally Posted by pokouz

The settlement was 390m€ BEFORE taxes, he had to pay taxes on it and was left with 220m€, you can add few % of growth and apply the exchange rate and you are in the ballpark of 350m$.

Anyway the reasoning would still be valid.

where do you get the 220M number from as I have never read this before. The amount he won has been published.

[pokouz]

Originally Posted by Onchan

Pokouz... plenty of people have asked this.

I've read every post and every press release, and this is the question that has not been answered "Where are the ROW player balances coming from?"

Well, most of us are not really not interested in discussing an hypothesis based on the assumption that GBT would voluntary not respect the terms of the deal with the DOJ, because it would just not make any sense.

And the information that we got about the terms of the deal between GBT and the DOJ is the following:

As part of the deal, the GBT would take responsibility for payments to non-U.S. players, and the Justice Department would facilitate paybacks to the American gamblers, according to Ifrah. American players would apply to the Department of Justice for compensation.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/17/news...ll_tilt_poker/

So you might want to think that "taking responsability" means "be free to **** everyone", but I doubt that the DOJ would agree with you, and they are the one dealing with GBT

[pokouz]

Originally Posted by Wizzard89

where do you get the 220M number from as I have never read this before. The amount he won has been published.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/201...vestigated.php

Move the timechart (in the graphic) to 2008.

And yeah its logical to pay taxes on the money coming from the sale of the company (even if its comes from a settlement).

[la6ki]

Good post, but some of the things you said are preeetty... how should I put it... silly.

Originally Posted by Onchan

And the answers nobody wants to admit are also possibilities;

<snip>

- I also think that FTP will find an excuse to close as many accounts as possible for breaches of T&C. Multi-accounting? Chargeback? Colluding? Incorrect contact info? Abusive chat? VPN use? I would imagine you could save a lot by burning everyone who did a teeny tiny breach of the TOCs. Perhaps even some pro's, affiliates and stakers.

[Go Get It]

Don't know if this has been discussed. But from the CNN article:

It is unclear whether American players will be fully reimbursed as a result of the agreement. "I think that's an open-ended question if they'll get fully reimbursed," Ifrah said.

So FTP entered into an agreement with GBT, who then entered into another agreement with the DOJ for FTP's assets that might not pay back US players in full... Standard FTP.

[Bene Gesserit]

Originally Posted by frozendonk

The new owners haven't treated you badly. The old owners are the ones who created this mess and they are going to be out of the picture. Don't hate GBT because of what Lederer, Bitar and the gang did.

If you're an American you will go through the Doj and get your money. If you are from the ROW you will have other options.

Also, FWIW the first part of your post makes it sound like you think you are the only one who has been waiting on a resolution for 8 months. Virtually everyone in this thread is in the same boat and many have a lot more money tied up than you do I suspect.

He is Russian! His style is familiar enough Stiffed player or Troll? Who knows

[Onchan]

Originally Posted by pokouz

Well, most of us are not really not interested in discussing an hypothesis based on the assumption that GBT would voluntary not respect the terms of the deal with the DOJ, because it would just not make any sense.

And the information that we got about the terms of the deal between GBT and the DOJ is the following:



http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/17/news...ll_tilt_poker/

So you might want to think that "taking responsability" means "be free to **** everyone", but I doubt that the DOJ would agree with you, and they are the one dealing with GBT

Ray's email to the other shareholders talks about Tapie "taking responsibility" for ROW balances too and "making them whole".

Nobody has said "repayment" or cashout yet. That is very very suspicious to me. Nobody as identified where the ROW loot is coming from.

Don't forget..... Once Tapie buys the software and brand from the DOJ then that's Tapie done with the DOJ, and DOJ done with FTP2 and Tapie.

Tapie robbed nobody. Any motivation he has to repay ROW players is based on the value they may bring him. Those who cannot play (France, Belgium, perhaps Italy and others) are worth nothing to him. Why pay them money out of his pocket that he didn't steal or ever see?

And don't give me the "nobody will play there if he stiffs anyone"... you think a UK player will care if Tapie burns the French players? Nobody on FTP gave a damn while FTP ignored, and stiffed, the US players between April 15 and the end of June.

[Eldorian]

Originally Posted by three_dee

Well, first off, I meant "year-end bonus". That was a brain fart.

Second, I was going off what other people in forums said at the time. My year-end bonus was already cleared at the time but I heard other people saying that they had partially cleared bonuses that were still not credited, that Full Tilt credited after the DOJ shutdown.

So, maybe they meant something else? Like cash bonuses bought with medals or something?

ya probably, no need to nitpick, sorry...

[SGT RJ]

Originally Posted by Onchan

Tapie robbed nobody. Any motivation he has to repay ROW players is based on the value they may bring him. Those who cannot play (France, Belgium, perhaps Italy and others) are worth nothing to him. Why pay them money out of his pocket that he didn't steal or ever see?

And don't give me the "nobody will play there if he stiffs anyone"... you think a UK player will care if Tapie burns the French players? Nobody on FTP gave a damn while FTP ignored, and stiffed, the US players between April 15 and the end of June.

Because when you buy a company, you buy their debts and obligations as well as their assets. Ergo as soon as the sale is finalized, GBT does owe players their balances back, whether or not they can play there any more or not, and surely a business man like Tapie knows this.

Players who were basically told, "we're keeping your money" would have legal recourse to sue, I would imagine. Surely it would be far easier to just pay everyone out and keep the good will of the general poker community than fight over a handful of players from a few countries who might get locked out of the new FTP.

[Wizzard89]

Originally Posted by pokouz

http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/201...vestigated.php

Move the timechart (in the graphic) to 2008.

And yeah its logical to pay taxes on the money coming from the sale of the company (even if its comes from a settlement).

not really-In Canada any money won in a lawsuit is not taxable! if you sue your employer for wrongful dismissal and win that money comes to you tax free. (been there done that).
So it is very possible that he got the whole amount (less legal fees)

[MMD]

Originally Posted by vamooose

New deals eh??

Some of these guys might get transfer of a small shareholding but I can't really see the likes of Matusow, Harman, Gordon etc being the faces of the ROW's second biggest poker site. These degens and 'hangers on' aren't marketable product over here.

Hellmuth might have half a chance thou....ROW's heard of him.

Expect Matusow will end up on the family podcast.

No more FTP's avatar with that guy with a helmet and pads on either

I'm not even meaning a shareholding although this might indeed be offered to them. I'm thinking that they should just get a sponsorship deal the same way that Stars sponsor their players. No more loaning money etc. No more contracts done with the shake of a hand. A proper sponsorship contract so that everyone knows what they have to do and how much they will get paid.

Originally Posted by yesright

Ivey (owes FTP Money)
Durrrr (owes FTP Money)
Antonius (owes FTP Money)
Hansen
Mattusow (owes FTP Money)

While I agree with your sentiment that the "Pros" are scumbags for sitting back, saying nothing and not offering to help out the players

Ivey and Durrrr went quiet after a while which says a lot.

A lot of people have speculated that Iveys lawsuit was self serving and had nothing to do with paying the players.

Antonius won a large sum after BF but transfered his whole bankroll to other players before FTP shut down. (hmmmm, nice timing!) Now he claims they wont pay him because they think something is wrong and the money isnt "real"

Durrrrrr, tried his best but it looks like he was completly shutdown by FTP as he hasnt posted much info in ages.

The rampant loaning of money to the "Pros" might be a significant part of FTPs downfall.

Its certainly a significant part of their shortfall.

We don't even know how much the other "pros" owe FTP?

It was reported by Subject:Poker that David Benyamine also owed a significant amount to FTP.

Yeah but the way I see it with regards to the loans is if you look at it from the pros point of view none of them knew that this would happen. You can't lend someone money, and say just pay us back when you can or pay us back with money that you will earn from sponsorship and then demand it back all of a sudden one day because you (bitar, lederer) suddenly realise you have messed up.

Yeah they owe money but no way is it their fault imo.

[pokouz]

Originally Posted by Onchan

Nobody as identified where the ROW loot is coming from.

Well from the guys who are going to own 90-95% of new FTP and are not GBT, and that you assume dont have 300m$ despite the fact that we dont have any info about them

Originally Posted by Onchan

Once Tapie buys the software and brand from the DOJ then that's Tapie done with the DOJ, and DOJ done with FTP2 and Tapie.

Well thats speculation, and I highly doubt it: it seems super logical to expect the DOJ to carefully monitor that GBT honor his share of the deal.

[pokouz]

Originally Posted by Wizzard89

not really-In Canada any money won in a lawsuit is not taxable! if you sue your employer for wrongful dismissal and win that money comes to you tax free. (been there done that).
So it is very possible that he got the whole amount (less legal fees)

It is similar for wrongful dismissal in french law (this kind of settlement is not taxed as its not "income"), but the logic for a business sale settlement is different in France (the sale is being "redone" at its fair value) and I am surprised at the idea that it could be different anywhere (it would open an obvious loophole to avoid paying taxes when selling a business) but i am not a canadian lawyer and could be wrong.

Anyway, Tapie paid taxes on the settlement, it is a documented fact and i provided sources so there is nothing to be debated about this.