FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)

[TafferBoy]

Recommend delaying the hookers and blow until cash is in teh pockets.
"Many's a slip 'twixt cup and lip," as they say (in the 1750s).
But obv. the very best development that could have come out of this so far.

Also nice to see that AGCC is back in everyone's good books. There was some serious hate being poured out on to them a while back. Look's like poeple will be cool with them back in the saddle now - player's cash will be OK this time, surely?!

PS: Exoendo, I just caught epilepsy from your new avatar!

[doc242]

What's to stop Full Tilt insiders from lining their friends accounts with cash so that they get paid out. With all of the shady transfers going on with that company I find it hard to believe that there will ever be a true accounting of who legitimately is owed what.

If one of the sponsored pros just got an advance for one million in his poker account from Full Tilt, that money will be sent to HIM. Imagine how many crazy deals like that are out there.

Then you get into the obvious money laundering that goes on every single minute on every site and you have real problems here.

I just hope that the insiders at Full Tilt didn't add money to their friends and families accounts after this story broke. I mean, they already proved they are willing to bribe a bank to process illegal transactions. Do you really think they are beyond creating some funny money accounts for themselves? What's the DOJ going to do, go over every single account and analyze a million transactions? I don't think so.

I have to put the odds of getting paid in full in the next 12 months at about 1.5 percent. One point five percent.

This thing is going to end badly for players. It can't end any other way.

[insidemanpoker]

Just to play devils advocate. If it comes out that shareholders returned 100% of the money and that is how a sale went through, would that change opinions about them or no way?

[NoahSD]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

Just to play devils advocate. If it comes out that shareholders returned 100% of the money and that is how a sale went through, would that change opinions about them or no way?

Yes.

[exoendo]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

Just to play devils advocate. If it comes out that shareholders returned 100% of the money and that is how a sale went through, would that change opinions about them or no way?

for the ones that didn't have day to day involvement, I would say absolutely. Though its' important not to go to far with praise as they are really just returning stolen money. It's not a matter of going above and beyond, they just brought themselves up to baseline.

[NoahSD]

Originally Posted by doc242

What's to stop Full Tilt insiders from lining their friends accounts with cash so that they get paid out. With all of the shady transfers going on with that company I find it hard to believe that there will ever be a true accounting of who legitimately is owed what.

I mean.. FTP's pretty incompetent, but it would be a new level of incompetence if there's actually a way to change a players' account balance in their system without leaving a record of it.

The only reason that I (and as a result the public) learned about a bunch of shady transactions is because they left records that they probably would have preferred not to leave, so that suggests to me that they at least got something right.

[SGT RJ]

Originally Posted by doc242

What's to stop Full Tilt insiders from lining their friends accounts with cash so that they get paid out. With all of the shady transfers going on with that company I find it hard to believe that there will ever be a true accounting of who legitimately is owed what.

If one of the sponsored pros just got an advance for one million in his poker account from Full Tilt, that money will be sent to HIM. Imagine how many crazy deals like that are out there.

Then you get into the obvious money laundering that goes on every single minute on every site and you have real problems here.

I just hope that the insiders at Full Tilt didn't add money to their friends and families accounts after this story broke. I mean, they already proved they are willing to bribe a bank to process illegal transactions. Do you really think they are beyond creating some funny money accounts for themselves? What's the DOJ going to do, go over every single account and analyze a million transactions? I don't think so.

I have to put the odds of getting paid in full in the next 12 months at about 1.5 percent. One point five percent.

This thing is going to end badly for players. It can't end any other way.

I don't think that the bolded logically follows from the other stuff you posted at all. Even if FTP decided to give some of their friends some extra money in their accounts, this wouldn't hurt the DOJ, it would hurt Tapie in the sale, he's the one that has to cover the player accounts. Why would they want to inflate the sale price? That would hurt their ability to sell at all.

So I highly doubt there's millions in "friend payments" or false account out there right now. If anything, I would have suspected that FTP would shut those accounts down (if they existed) once the site went offline to ensure that that money "owed" wouldn't show up on the balance sheets.

[aggo]

Originally Posted by doc242

What's to stop Full Tilt insiders from lining their friends accounts with cash so that they get paid out. With all of the shady transfers going on with that company I find it hard to believe that there will ever be a true accounting of who legitimately is owed what.

If one of the sponsored pros just got an advance for one million in his poker account from Full Tilt, that money will be sent to HIM. Imagine how many crazy deals like that are out there.

Then you get into the obvious money laundering that goes on every single minute on every site and you have real problems here.

I just hope that the insiders at Full Tilt didn't add money to their friends and families accounts after this story broke. I mean, they already proved they are willing to bribe a bank to process illegal transactions. Do you really think they are beyond creating some funny money accounts for themselves? What's the DOJ going to do, go over every single account and analyze a million transactions? I don't think so.

I have to put the odds of getting paid in full in the next 12 months at about 1.5 percent. One point five percent.

This thing is going to end badly for players. It can't end any other way.

You are grossly misinformed. Please stop spreading lies.

Ftp isn't paying us anymore. We are getting paid by Tapie through the DOJ. FTP is cut out of the picture.

[NomoneyHU.]

Originally Posted by exoendo

eyescrew, the context of "worth it" is clearly from the buyers perspective. The whole reason this thread is 120 pages long is in relation to the ongoing discussion of players getting their money back. Whether or not it works out for tapie long term is really another issue. In the context of the here and now, it was worth it for him, whether or not he ends up being wrong.

HAHAHAHAHA! I must high-five you for that new avatar, just sayin'. Other than that, /derail. Weeeee, we might see our money soon!






- NMHU.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Hairy Chinese Kid

So do we know any details of this deal? Is the following correct?

GBT is paying out players, so $390MM or thereabouts, which satisfies the DoJ's civil suit, and as of now RB and one other are facing criminal charges. It appears that the current owners will have some stake in the new FT.

We don't know the details and therefore we don't know if any of what you wrote is correct, except that Bitar and Burtnick continue to face criminal charges.

We don't know if GBT is paying out ROW players in full. While it might look like he must, if he is to entice players to come back, there persist reports that he is continuing to poll market acceptance of ways to avoid paying out in full at the get go.

Furthermore, we don't know how much of the money to pay back US players is being put up by GBT, and we don't know from the S:P report that US players will be paid in full.

It is hard to see how $390M will both pay out all players in full (assuming about $300M is owed to players), and satisfy a suit that sought $1B and ownership of all FTP assets. $90M doesn't seem like much to put against $1B plus the market value of FTP's assets.

While the Bitar memo implies the deal will affect current owner interests in the FTP companies, it is unclear whether that effect could go so far as to have all ownership interest extinguished.

Originally Posted by Hairy Chinese Kid

If the above is correct, what is the likelihood of further criminal charges being brought?
Do the current (old) owners just walk away with the money, and a stake in the new FT..?

There is some chance that criminal charges will be laid against Bitar, Lederer, Ferguson and Furst regarding the fraud the DoJ alleges in the ammended civil complaint. There is a lesser chance of charges against other owners, only if evidence turns up showing that they were aware the dividend payments were improper or actively conspired with the Directors regarding those payments.

If owners were unaware of the circumstances surrounding the improper dividend payments, they are legally entitled to retain them. If the full amount of the improper payments can be recovered from the Directors(who are legally responsible for them), then I would suggest that the other owners are even morally entitled to retain them.

Since we have no idea what GBT will acquire or how the new FTP will be structrued, it is quite conceivable that current FTP owners will have some stake in at least a part of what emerges from the deal. For instance, perhaps they keep an ownership interest in the software, and get royalty payments or usage fees. Given what has and has not been alleged, how can it be unjust that innocent non-Director owners retain something of value?

[EYESCREW]

Originally Posted by aggo

You are grossly misinformed. Please stop spreading lies.

Ftp isn't paying us anymore. We are getting paid by Tapie through the DOJ. FTP is cut out of the picture.

You've posted this more than once I believe. I'm not saying you're wrong but you sound so sure this is exactly how it's playing out and I was wondering where you heard this.

My point is it could play out the way you're suggesting but it seems like there are other ways US player payouts could play out also.

Originally Posted by exoendo

eyescrew, the context of "worth it" is clearly from the buyer's perspective. The whole reason this thread is 120 pages long is in relation to the ongoing discussion of players getting their money back. Whether or not it works out for tapie long term is really another issue. In the context of the here and now, it was worth it for him, whether or not he ends up being wrong.

Exo... You were implying earlier that FTP had significant value and the company would 100% be bought because it was worth more than their liabilities. Many agreed with you but myself and others didn't think FT was worth more than their liabilities. I didn't doubt players would see some of their money at some point. I did question whether they were going to see all of it since getting 100% payback seemed to rely on an investor coming along that was willing to put up $350 million + DOJ fine. The investor finally came along but it's unclear at this point exactly what his investment is. As long as players get paid back it doesn't really matter but the way things are unfolding is quite different than your implication that a knight in shining armor would come along to save FTP and all of the players. Especially if it's shown the DOJ dropped its civil forfeiture lawsuit and significantly reduced the $1 billion fine they were seeking.

[Mycology]

The planets and stars seem to be aligning, for our funds to be returned, for online poker to be legalized, it took 3/4's of a year but things are starting to look up. For poker players at least

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by EYESCREW

So a deal has been reached between Tapie, the DOJ and FTP?

That is not what has been reported. The report is of an agreement in principal between the DoJ and GBT. FTP was not a party to the deal. An agreement in principal can be a long way from a final deal.

Originally Posted by EYESCREW

That's awesome as it sounds like players should definitely see their money again. I do have a couple of questions though.

I wouldn't go so far as "definitely". GBT still needs to finalize a deal with the DoJ; then he needs to make a deal with FTP. Then he needs to decide to pay out in full, and the DoJ has to decide that US players are owed what those players think they are owed.

Your questions are good ones. I would say that, wouldn't I, since many are similar to ones I posted earlier?

Perhaps you should include Furst along with Bitar, Lederer and Ferguson.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by EYESCREW

You've posted this more than once I believe. I'm not saying you're wrong but you sound so sure this is exactly how it's playing out and I was wondering where you heard this.

My point is it could play out the way you're suggesting but it seems like there are other ways US player payouts could play out also.

I gotta agree with EYESCREW on this. There is no way to conclude from the S:P article or the Bitar memo that GBT is paying the whole shot (or even a signiificant portion) of paying out US players in full.

There is talk of GBT making a payment to the DoJ, but how much is it, and how much is for the fine, how much is for purchasing the assets and how much is explicitly for paying players? We don't know. We don't even know, from those sources, that US players will be paid in full.

[EYESCREW]

Suggestion to players...

"Cautious optimism" but optimism nonetheless. ::::fingers crossed:::: because the poker community could sure use a huge cash infusion right about now.