FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)

[Hdemet]

Originally Posted by NexusWR

Hey Harry i'm with you mate, however I think it's time to just let this one play out. I stopped posting about the subject as there are too many people with vested financial and emotional interest in this deal and they are all praying it goes through. This hinders their ability to see all the facts rationally and logically.

Whilst S:P's article is positive (as opposed to negative) I think most of us agree it is far from being a done deal. (Kevmode has ejaculated a little prematurely again, and there are other posters who will revel in this news as if everyone's been paid already) My personal opinion is it's best to let them have their moment, until we know all the facts.

The facts I know so far are I wouldn't trust either party as far as I could throw them. Except maybe the DoJ. Bitar, Lederer, Ferguson et al are crooks, and the Tapies are cheating scumbags who will do anything for a profit - or to win a football match. I won't be recommending playing on a new Full Tilt, whether they pay everyone or not.

I will cross my fingers and believe this deal when I see it. The key words are still 'in principle' - this is a key definition that means any deal can be scuppered by the minutest of details.

I also won't be posting on the subject again until then, I suggest you do the same for your sanity. You will only be pissing into a sea of optimism. You just won't convince those with unconditional faith to listen to what you say.

Good luck everyone.

Thanks for the advice and I shall heed it as I seem to be wasting my time posting stuff on here

However I sincerely hope people will refrain from attacking me directly becasue if they do I reserve the right to reply and if they post garbage about me i shall throw it back.

So lets see what the next development will be and see what comes out of this cesspit of skullduggery and fraud and theivery as perpetrated by the scum at FTP

[oneonth3run]

Fwiw, the announcement of the DoJ deal being made was exactly 200 days after black friday. Let's hope it isn't another 200 if/before our funds are actually in our bank accounts.

[NexusWR]

Originally Posted by oneonth3run

I mean, I appreciate balance in a thread, but one man being responsible for 5% of the posts in a 12,000 post thead is a little much I think.

I get the impression he felt like he was the only counter to the optimism displayed. Maybe this is why he felt the need to post so much. Also, he is Mediterranean, and I think it's pretty obvious they don't back down from arguments so quickly (us Scots are similar)


I'll say it agian - Harry was the only one to tell the AGCC what we thought of the meeting being held in-camera, and for that he gave himself a lot of credibility. Since then it has descended into unnecessarily personal posts, when we should be focussing on what really happened, and what sort of deal is realistic. I don't think he was wrong in saying the Tapie deal was unrealistic (and it still may prove to be)

Let's stop Harry bashing and get back to Bitar bashing.

[tamiller866]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

So why are the DoJ not also giving the same guarantee for RoW player funds?

I say that this may be a partial brilliant agreement as you put it but will not be so great until we know whats in stall for the RoW and I defy anyone to state that there has been a completed done deal where anyone US or RoW gets all their money back. It also has yet to be signed off as a final deal.

I still remain highly sceptical but am gradually moving to a less pessimistic viewpoint. As and when the scales tip over then and only then will I announce to you all that I am now truly happy that a deal and player money will be repaid.

I think ROW is somewhat self guaranteed by the fact that they are Tapie's customer base, so screwing them would just be shooting himself in the foot.

Beyond that, Tapie was going to have to come up with something out of pocket in this deal or it would just appear to be a US government bailout of an online poker site.

I really think this deal is the best of both worlds, and fits most of what you said in this thread; the player base would need to be divided, a buyer wouldn't put up the full $350M, the DOJ would have to make major concessions, etc.

Unlike myself, you didn't flat out say it wouldn't happen, you just repeated over and over again what the obstacles were, so all the crow is on my plate.

[insidemanpoker]

Originally Posted by aggo

Harry, just give it up. Personally, I take little satisfaction that you weren't right on this. It doesnt matter to me.

People want to pick fights with you because you don't want to admit you were wrong. You reveled with your supporters in this thread in the bleakest moments over the past 3 months. There was absolutely a smugness with your posts during that time. Let's not also forget that in the very beginning of this thread, you attempted to draw pity for Howard and the rest of the shareholders many many times, by attempting to convince us that he was holed up in his mansion depressed.

I stayed on the sidelines in the beginning because I thought you were right, FTP was dead and never coming back. But when Tapie was serious, and it was painfully obvious he was, you kept posting about how he was fake, disingenuous, a sham, etc. Then it came out that there were rumors that you potentially lobbied a once, serious, investor to not repay US players.

Even when Tapie was negotiating with the DOJ you even refused to admit then we were closer than ever to have players repaid. This was such an obvious truth, and that was way before news leaked that Tapie was considering not paying ROW players in full. That only emboldened your posts and you missed the point time after time after time. Tapie offers us the best chance to get repaid as close to 100% as possible. Instead, you openly mulled that suing shareholders for dividends as a better option, which was eventually thoroughly debunked as not likely viable through analysis done by DoTheMath and Skallagrim. By then, you became a caricature of a FTP troll and it was clear to me that you should not be taken seriously. Instead, you pushed forward with your doom and gloom, constantly slighting Tapie and insinuating that we were better off suing shareholders when it was already debunked.

For a week during the no-news-doj-tapie cycle in October, you wrote many times that Tapie was in this to somehow screw players and that he was not a serious investor.

What peeved me is that you seem like a fairly perceptive person, but you obviously were never able to objectively analyze the situation. You were a drone of the doom and gloom party-line for a long time and used the same arguments time after time after time, even when new information was available. That's why people fight you.

Originally Posted by NexusWR

I get the impression he felt like he was the only counter to the optimism displayed. Maybe this is why he felt the need to post so much. Also, he is Mediterranean, and I think it's pretty obvious they don't back down from arguments so quickly (us Scots are similar)

What the hell thread were you reading? I signed in and read this thread day in and day out. The people being 'negative' significantly out weighed the reverse. With the exception of kevmode, the so called 'optimists' like myself were a lot more reserved with putting such strong opinions out there both because we don't like to make definitive statements when we aren't sure and because it isn't that fun to post them in a thread full of people being negative all the time who are so sure we were living in fantasy land.

I found it an incredibly significant and overlooked accusation that aggo made at Harry. Harry even responded to his post without commenting on it. He basically said Harry pushed very hard to get a prior serious investor NOT to pay US players. If this is true, Harry deserves the wrath he has received and about 10,000x more. I have speculated in prior posts that he is a flat out bad person with nefarious motives and people just thought I was off base. While there are good people who benefit from FTP going under, doing anything to help that happen makes you scum.

As to this news and what it means, it is obviously very good news. It is very good news for ROW players too, despite what a few people are trying to pretend. Why the hell would GBT be buying FTP if screwing his only customer base was what he would do. No matter how cash outs are facilitated, you can be sure ROW players won't be truly 'screwed' in any major way. I don't take the idea of being paid out over a moderate time period being 'screwed' in any way given the alternative. Obviously FTP2 must try to make ROW players happy. With the exception of Harry, who I think was just on a vendetta and pushing for something else, the negative people in this thread often lacked logical reasoning abilities. This is not to say that people shouldn't have been worried and that FTP was definitely going to bounce back but the way people made it out to be such a one outer made no sense.

Basically ALL parties involved had significant incentive for players to get paid back and this, as I have said, includes the DoJ. FTP going under is a huge pain in the #$@ for the DoJ on a number of levels. Obviously they could deal with it if forced to, but a buyout is such a better alternative for them. FTP obviously would rather get sold then go under and probably take even more DoJ wrath and obviously a buyer wants to try to come to terms of a +EV deal for himself.

To what extent this board member vote is a hurdle, I don't know, and would love to hear peoples opinions on that if they have any info.

[Hairy Chinese Kid]

So in all of this do the old owners walk away scot free? Are they going to own a bit of the new FT?

If that is what it takes for everybody to get their money back (and I don't suppose anybody knows for certain at this point) then so be it I guess, the greater good obviously is people getting repaid, and I am delighted this seems to be happening.

But if the current owners are going to get away with this massive theft, then I won't be playing on the new FT, and the idea of Howard Lederer etc turning up at poker tournaments etc etc (if it happens) turns my stomach, and is the final nail in the coffin for me as to whether there is any integrity in the game of poker or not.
If you can get away with it, do it...





Edity - or if they get away with it does it mean their gamble paid off and it was a brilliant move by the old owners of FT all along? lol

[Blizzuff]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

..and as a final comment how many of you have actively tried to do anythign at all to get this ****ty mess resolved?

I pelvic thrusted violently in the general direction of Ray Bitar this morning when I woke up and read the news, does this count?

[tamiller866]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

What the hell thread were you reading? I signed in and read this thread day in and day out. The people being 'negative' significantly out weighed the reverse. With the exception of kevmode, the so called 'optimists' like myself were a lot more reserved with putting such strong opinions out there both because we don't like to make definitive statements when we aren't sure and because it isn't that fun to post them in a thread full of people being negative all the time who are so sure we were living in fantasy land.

I found it an incredibly significant and overlooked accusation that aggo made at Harry. Harry even responded to his post without commenting on it. He basically said Harry pushed very hard to get a prior serious investor NOT to pay US players. If this is true, Harry deserves the wrath he has received and about 10,000x more. I have speculated in prior posts that he is a flat out bad person with nefarious motives and people just thought I was off base. While there are good people who benefit from FTP going under, doing anything to help that happen makes you scum.

As to this news and what it means, it is obviously very good news. It is very good news for ROW players too, despite what a few people are trying to pretend. Why the hell would GBT be buying FTP if screwing his only customer base was what he would do. No matter how cash outs are facilitated, you can be sure ROW players won't be truly 'screwed' in any major way. I don't take the idea of being paid out over a moderate time period being 'screwed' in any way given the alternative. Obviously FTP2 must try to make ROW players happy. With the exception of Harry, who I think was just on a vendetta and pushing for something else, the negative people in this thread often lacked logical reasoning abilities. This is not to say that people shouldn't have been worried and that FTP was definitely going to bounce back but the way people made it out to be such a one outer made no sense.

Basically ALL parties involved had significant incentive for players to get paid back and this, as I have said, includes the DoJ. FTP going under is a huge pain in the #$@ for the DoJ on a number of levels. Obviously they could deal with it if forced to, but a buyout is such a better alternative for them. FTP obviously would rather get sold then go under and probably take even more DoJ wrath and obviously a buyer wants to try to come to terms of a +EV deal for himself.

To what extent this board member vote is a hurdle, I don't know, and would love to hear peoples opinions on that if they have any info.

Maybe I should just log off and give everyone a chance to spew their 'I told you so"'s, but I maintain that the reasoning that caused people like myself to be negative was logical, it just lacked some information to which even now you seem unaware.

If FTP had not been bought it would have gone into liquidation, at which point the DOJ could NOT have dealt with player reimbursement if they needed to, as it would have been out of their hands and the courts would have taken over.

If one of the wise optimists in this situation would have voiced that argument when people like myself were suggesting liquidation was our best option for getting paid, this thread would be a lot smaller.

Also, if the DOJ's motivation was so obvious, there would have been people beating on FTP's door to acquire the company, but it took someone like Tapie experienced in taking problems off the government's hands along with a lawyer like Dayanim experienced in working these types of deals to put it all together.

Now it seems crystal clear why the DOJ was motivated to make a deal with Tapie, but suggesting that you knew this all along doesn't make you more logical, it makes me wonder why you didn't share this reason for your optimism with those of us not blessed with your prescience, rather than just sharing your 'wanna bet?' rhetoric.

[insidemanpoker]

I don't have the energy to read through all my posts, but I did make that argument on more than one occasion over the last two months.

I commend your admitting you were wrong and it leaves me with zero ill will with you. There is only one poster in this thread who an 'i was wrong' post would not mean all is forgiven. Not that I had a vendetta against you, I just have thought you've been wrong and I explained the DoJ incentive many times.

[Hdemet]

Originally Posted by Blizzuff

I pelvic thrusted violently in the general direction of Ray Bitar this morning when I woke up and read the news, does this count?

Only if you managed to connect with RB.....

[Blizzuff]

I'm pretty sure that if he was on Harry's ignore list he wouldn't get any PMs. Disaster/scandal averted.

[tamiller866]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

I don't have the energy to read through all my posts, but I did make that argument on more than one occasion over the last two months.

I commend your admitting you were wrong and it leaves me with zero ill will with you. There is only one poster in this thread who an 'i was wrong' post would not mean all is forgiven. Not that I had a vendetta against you, I just have thought you've been wrong and I explained the DoJ incentive many times.

While I really do appreciate you letting me off the hook, I have to ask this question; how many times did Harry (who you don't want to let off the hook) ask over and over and over "Why are we waiting for a third party to rescue the company instead of just demanding it be forced into liquidation to pay the players?" (paraphrasing)?

Nobody had an answer to this question until now, yet "all the logical people knew this" but just sat back and whined about Harry repeating the same question over and over again instead of answering it.

Either nobody had a good answer for Harry's question, or the brilliant minds that did are the ones who owe the apology to this thread as I believe Harry would have stopped asking if someone would have given the answer.

[insidemanpoker]

Originally Posted by tamiller866

While I really do appreciate you letting me off the hook, I have to ask this question; how many times did Harry (who you don't want to let off the hook) ask over and over and over "Why are we waiting for a third party to rescue the company instead of just demanding it be forced into liquidation to pay the players?" (paraphrasing)?

Nobody had an answer to this question until now, yet "all the logical people knew this" but just sat back and whined about Harry repeating the same question over and over again instead of answering it.

Either nobody had a good answer for Harry's question, or the brilliant minds that did are the ones who owe the apology to this thread as I believe Harry would have stopped asking if someone would have given the answer.

hmmm, pretty sure the answer is really easy and obvious. Because forcing it into liquidation would not result in players get paid anywhere near in full. there isn't 300M+ lying around. a third party needed to inject significant capital to reach that number.

but for all our sakes, let's all, myself included, stop trying to debate about the past now. i just can't understand why harry doesn't just go away. what is he doing here. why is he wasting his life obsessing over 2+2 if he thinks it is so hostile to him. he has nothing to gain by coming here and getting angry and ranting over and over. i just can't figure it out, but again, it isn't really my business. i would just bet he could be a lot happier and more constructive elsewhere than here (in before 'i need to defend myself!').

devoting your life to this thread would be a mistake. what is going to happen is going to happen regardless.

[SuperJez]

+1 to everything NexusWR said

[aggo]

Harry -

I was unaware that you had formally addressed that issue already. I was careful in my wording as such because of how sensitive it is.