I agree. Accountability needs to be against reasonable and relevant standards. IOM GSC oversight was sufficent to protect all players despite an unprecedented event. AGCC was not.

I think it is easier to make a case that differences in adequacy of regulatory oversight contributed to differences in outcome.

I never got a flower shop charge. I never had to deposit.

As I recall, there were no acknowledgments of guilt regarding payment processing. I could be wrong. I do recall there being problems about offering sportsbetting, which fairly cleary was illegal in the US.

The regulators regulated the sites, not the payment processors. Party got in trouble for offering sportsbook. (Bodog too?) In the other cases the problem was with the processor not the licensee. Of all the things you cited, the flower shop charges by Party, (if this was widely known), is the sort of thing that should alert a regulator to look more closely at a licensee. One other thing that might make me agree that the processor seizures should be a cause for concern is that the regulator should be monitoring the character of known associated companies. However, e.g. if the only place a day labourer can cash his pay cheque is a shady payday loan outfit, does that mean we should suspect the labourer of poor moral integrity? It is voluntary associations that matter, not the involuntary ones.

not that I care either way, but do you really think the IRS is going to go through all FTP accounts and see if their withdraws are > than their deposits...? I sincerely doubt that anyone who hasn't made a decent 6 figure sum over the past year or two is going to have anything to worry about. That said those who have prob do claim taxes. But I guess the IRS will be the IRS and maybe they'll surprise us, who knows.

wow mycology are you for real? online poker was illegal or at least an extremly grey area for americans. You continued to play, and that continuation/grey area as a whole generated this issue/ resulted in our funds as LEGAL players being seized and the service provided suspended entirely.

All of the ROTW was allowed to play online poker, we all got punished because of USA and USA alone. how do you honestly sit there and say that we are in a better spot then you. You never should of been here since UIGEA. You took the risk, we got none of the rewards, and took all of the punishment.

As proven by comments such as: that its better for us to grind now, without americans. So that means you never once did us a favour by playing, it would of always been better without you.

What is your justification to being owed something for blatantly playing in an illegal manner or at least skirting along the the grey edges of it (whether its for a living or not, you chose to play with fire by doing something that wasnt even legal!). Just like americans now who have moved to another country to play online poker. You write on your taxes that you made the money playing online poker. pay your 30% and they take it happily, knowing still that a citizen is doing an illegal act.

On a side note, as a business, i dont get why the DOJ isnt being the investor for FTP. Fronting them the 250mill and working with FTP to ensure all US players pay tax. Its like.... right there waiting to be a huge taxed business. Sadly governments rarely make the smart choice Its pretty much a freeroll, like beyond +ev to do that.

If it somehow came down to this it will get very complicated because I believe (not 100% sure)some states only require you to only report your winning sessions (even if you are a net loser) unless you play professionally.

I don't see why it would be inadmissable. It would just have little probative value.

A notarized screenshot, however...



P.S. I was recently surprised to find that a faxed screenshot was all that was required to authorize a particular $nK cheque be cut and sent to me. While the screenshot was of a webpage, and showed the URL, the page could not be verified by any other user because the page could only be accessed through a password.

I tend to agree with you because its hard to explain 6 figs sitting in your account when lets say you only claimed 50k. It would seem doubtful that they would come after someone who lets say made 10k by cashing big in some tourney, but like you said they are the IRS, and to quote an episode of Seinfield "they're like the mafia, they can take everything they want".

This could be permissible but I doubt that those few who got screenshots had the foresight to have them notarized. Personally if it comes down to a screenshot to prove my balance Im screwed as I didn't take one.

Under the terms of the agreement the sites signed with the DOJ to get their domains back, the DOJ already has access to the records. There does not seem to be anything in the agreement that would prevent the DOJ from sharing those records with the IRS.

Are you kidding me??? You got to play against the American player pool for 5 years. I'd be willing to wager that the vast, overwhelming majority of ROTW winning players earned many multiples more between 2006-2011 directly from US players than what is now tied up in their FTP account. Either you're completely oblivious or just a losing player.

Believe it or not, it kind of is the honour system. FTP will be required to disclose their account records as part of the discovery process, and they'll do it, and they'll do it accurately. The various cases and actions have myriad issues. Who had what in their account isn't among them, and they won't risk blowing their credibility on something where any screwing around can pretty easily be proven.

No, they'll be risking their credibility elsewhere, on other aspects of the case where it's harder to show they're lying....

The only post worth reading in the last **** knows how many pages.

And ledason stop using the word we instead of I.....you sound like a fanny.

We said we wouldn't reply, but since you made an inaccurate statement about the Party Gaming settlement which specifically included a statement of facts that they were involved in illegal payment transactions that "Prior to 13 October 2006, certain of the U.S. customer transactions intended for PartyGaming that were processed by third parties, and other gaming and payment-related activity, were contrary to certain U.S. laws." we felt we needed to correct you. We couldn't find a full copy but the linked article contains the main statement.


This is also an incorrect statement. You can view the agreement here. The Monitors (who is a third party) purpose is solely to insure that records are preserved and that FTP is following the agreement. We see no provision in the agreement for the Monitor to transmit information to the DOJ which would normally require a legal action. Moreover, it is unclear when or if this Monitor has yet to have been put in place at either company, although it may have happened.

You are generally correct -- courts typically won't enforce contracts for illegal activities. If I pay you to do something illegal for me and you run off with my money without fulfilling your end of the bargain, I am generally SOL as far as courts are concerned.

I still believe that by far the best chance of recovering funds is an angel investor, as unlikely as that seems now.

Frankly we were just making a trite comment and not really thinking about it, but we would suppose that if the DOJ ever gets into FTP and is able to access their records through either some future agreement or as part of a bankruptcy, we would say that anyone with a 5 figure income who didn't file a return should really consider filing back taxes, but that is just IMHO and we have no way to predict what will happen with these records.

i can't see how a priority system is even workable.

While I understand some people play professionally, it isn't the responsibility of the site too treat those that might be professional any better. I mean there are obviously recreational players at all limits or people wouldn't play them.

The system needs to treat everyone equally in order to bring back any level of confidence.

Lol poker has so many social, ethical, moral contradictions---this who should be paid bit being a prime example---poker really was made for the information (internet forum) age! All I know, and I'm sure many will agree, I'm kissing someone pretty much the moment we find out monies will be paid back. If it doesn't happen, no worries. I just hope I'm around someone worth kissing if and when it does! But seriously, I highly doubt anyone on these forums is even close to being in any kind of desperate financial situation. They, or you, might think so, but c'mon---a desperate financial situation to me, is...well, hunger! Everything after that is basically a waste of time to discuss.

I was just watching a tennis match where a commentator mentioned this certain player on tour had made 1.3 million over the past 13 years and how impoverished his lifestyle must have been. I lol'ed at the time, and am lol'ing again!

I ask everyone informed do you think there is a small possibility that September 15 is given back to the license fulltilt_?

Is a new hearing scheduled on september 15th?

shouldn't they announce it 14days prior to it?

Jeff Ifrah was asked how long he thought it would take for FT to open again if a new investor was found and he said "I am guessing but I would say at least 30 days".

So it's highly unlikely, even if an investor was found today.

How is UB still running? Do they have staff? Is a worst case scenario FTP situation ever going to play itself out like UB?

had said about 30 days to go back online. I was wondering if there was any chance that the license is returned on 15 sorry for my bad ing

No chance w/out investor obv!

Edit: Or if the shareholders do something radical

Yes there is a chance but it is a very samll chance indeed.

Absolutely possible for licence suspension to be lifted and games to reopen on 15/9. Steps below;

1. Investor walks into Ray's office and says "Here's 400m for the player liability acounts and 100m to buy the company. I have another 1bn in reserve to indemnify the company against the DOJ fine or any fine to be paid for you or Nelson."

2. Ray says "Deal... who are you firing?"

3. Investor says. "You, Deirdre, D Bowman, Caroline, Gil, your accountants and lawyers, your finance team, your auditors, your payments team."

4. Ray says "OK, sounds good, **** em."

5. Investor says "Get the AGCC on the phone. Tell them we are coming with money. I have a plane full of lawyers to write the trust terms for the seg accounts. We'll open the bank accounts in Alderney itself so they can keep a beady eye on them."

6. Ray says "Sweet. Do we really need to pay the Tiltboys, Phil, Harman, etc too? Can we just burn them all as they don't have paperwork?"

7. Investor says "No. I don't want to be sued. Everyone gets their peice of the 100m."

8. Ray (Sad face, bats eyelids) "What if I suck your ****?"

9. Investor (pauses and looks sternly at Ray) "Just sign here, and make the call you fat jerk."

10. Ray signs "So what now?"

11. We have a plane to catch. My henchman have picked up the people we are firing and given them the news. We need to fire another couple of hundred later, but that can wait."

12. Ray and Investor fly to Alderney. Ray offers head a few more times to the pilot, the co-pilot, the Investor, and the cab driver. All refuse.

13. Investor says "Hey AGCC... we have some news. And an assload of cash."

14. AGCC says "For reals? No foolin'? Gee thanks mister."

15. Investor says "Liability account is locked and loaded and wrapped up in a irrevocable Trust enshrined in perpituity in UK law. I've retained Ernst & Young to do weekly reconciliation and audit of the accounts."

16. AGCC claps hands in glee.

17. Investor "One condition... hearing must be held on Monday 5th. Give us back our licence, and a press release, and a massive diamond-encrusted throne."

18. AGCC "Sure, Monday, no problem... wait, what?"

19. Investor "Kidding! Just get the hearing scheduled for Monday. We are back in business on Tuesday morning."

20. Ray says "Great! FTP lives. We are back in business!"

21. Investor "What's this 'we' bull****? You are out, remember?"

22. Ray "Ah. Can I get a ride with you back to the airport?"

23. Investor "No."

I find all this ROW vs US discussion somewhat depressing, far better to try to work together to do what is best for all players.

Pre-AGCC suspension there were 100k players from the ROW and at one time and at least 5k people signed up for the new depositor freeroll, so alot of players didn't just withdraw their balance and go elsewhere.

The real fact is the DOJ has and is most likely co-operating with the Irish and other authorities if it wants to forfeit those foreign located assets from frozen status. These foreign countries will require a foreign judgment to direct execute or execute in proxy as the foreign countries have control of the assets and will likely not do so if it means their citizens get screwed. Remember FTP was ~ 50/50 split ROW and US players.

As I understand it even in the unlikely theoretical event the funds have already all moved to AFF and are under direct US control and for some reason the DOJ refuses to share or didn't present evidence to the foreign courts that some proportion are unseizable lawful proceeds/deposits of European/ROW players. Then the UK and European Courts have the right to apply the reciprocal banking order similar to 18 U.S.C. Section 981(k) against US bank institutions to take back from the foreign branch their share. I very much doubt this all will happen but note this just to quell some doomsayers.

The fact is the DOJ and ARA and other foreign agencies work co-cooperatively together as we players should be. Having good relations means when you really need help (i.e. not in a grey legal area in US and expressly legal in ROW issue as in this case ) as in CT you get speedy assistance.