FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)

[samooth]

Originally Posted by Eldorian

We do not know if they did anything wrong (criminaly). The distributions might all have been legid, in fact they are pretty much in line with what ppl were guessing FT is earning in the last couple of years. What they DID wrong was putting money on accounts they did not have/receive; we do not know if they would still make dividend disbursements at this point, they are clearly guilty of mismanagement but if any of it was criminal we do not have the information necesarry to say (yet).

You usually do not get jailed for mismanagement (unfortunately, in a lot of cases).

That`s just wrong. They had outstanding debt of 390M, and only 60M in cash in spring - this hole was not solely created by crediting US players w/ funds they could never collect, it was because dividends were paid to the owners out the the players accounts. They simply realized that they have such a huge cash stock, and FTP is a cash cow, that they can simply take a chunk out of this, enrich themselves and that it would automatically build up again through the protits through rake.

I don`t get the current sentiment regarding this topic amongst some posters, and especially amongst the pros. Here`s the thing: FTP makes revenue (mainly through rake), pays its operating & financing (if any) expenses w/ it, what`s left is profit. Usually a company retains some of it, and the rest is distributed to the shareholders through dividends or profit sharing. Every shareholder that received those dividends knew how big his or her share of FTP was, i.e. everyone knew at any given distribution how much dividends were paid in total. Everyone must have realized that they paid out way more than what would have been justified by the actual profits, especially the board members, because they knew what the exact profits were.

I don`t get how durrrr goes out there and tells the world that he thinks the actions of the board members were not intentional. Or that he thinks it was just one bad decision w/ many bad to follow. There`s a reason why the DOJ called FTP a ponzi, not only because it sounds sexy (as Noah would put it) but also because money was distributed that was not linked to profits. I don`t get how Andrew Robl brings up that he believes that Chris Ferguson is a good man, because he invested most of his money in charity. If you wanna be Robin Hood, adjust to us living in 2011.

Seriously people, everyone w/ a half brain could`ve logically deducted that those dividend payments were in no relation to the actual profits. Greed.

edit: I wanna add that I don`t believe that FTP was a ponzi scheme, because a ponzi does not have an actual source of profits, or creates value, which FTP clearly did. However, I want to emphazise that if you only look at the dividend policy, "part" of it was clearly a ponzi scheme.

[vamooose]

Originally Posted by samooth

That`s just wrong. They had outstanding debt of 390M, and only 60M in cash in spring - this hole was not solely created by crediting US players w/ funds they could never collect, it was because dividends were paid to the owners out the the players accounts.

$128m is the size of the whole that was credited to US players but never deducted from their banks

[hitgirl]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

I dont know who the lawyer that had that bright idea was and whether he has subsequently been fired but shall try and find out?

Asking a lawyer how to scam people or hide shady stuff will always result in this kind of advise. Has nothing to do with being incompetent but everything about asking the wrong questions to the wrong guy. Your average banker would know how to make money by keeping up the illusion and pushing liabilities to the next millenium and beyond.

[RNauta]

Originally Posted by Fiveafterfive

I wasn't aware of this but now it makes sense Ifrah stepping down from the FTP case and now taking over the money men Lederer & Ferguson.

From what I understood from what he was saying earlier, he's strictly a corporate lawyer for financial matters. It would be a stretch for him to change 100% and start representing individuals.

[LostOstrich]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

Unfortunately some oh so clever lawyer advised them not to pay anything unless they had all the money to hand so they decided to pay nobody in the USA. at all.

I dont know who the lawyer that had that bright idea was and whether he has subsequently been fired but shall try and find out?

lol, any lawyer that would advise them to pay some players out and keep taking others' deposits despite knowing they didn't have the funds to pay them back would deserve to get struck off. You're obviously keen to get your money back, and I respect a lot of the work you've put into this, but what you're suggesting here is at best dumb and at worst criminal.

[Fiveafterfive]

Originally Posted by RNauta

From what I understood from what he was saying earlier, he's strictly a corporate lawyer for financial matters. It would be a stretch for him to change 100% and start representing individuals.

Since Ferguson & Lederer were specifically named as the BODs of FTP in the amended indictment, it still is a corporate matter?

[FDSaussure]

Originally Posted by samooth

That`s just wrong. They had outstanding debt of 390M, and only 60M in cash in spring - this hole was not solely created by crediting US players w/ funds they could never collect, it was because dividends were paid to the owners out the the players accounts. They simply realized that they have such a huge cash stock, and FTP is a cash cow, that they can simply take a chunk out of this, enrich themselves and that it would automatically build up again through the protits through rake.

I don`t get the current sentiment regarding this topic amongst some posters, and especially amongst the pros. Here`s the thing: FTP makes revenue (mainly through rake), pays its operating & financing (if any) expenses w/ it, what`s left is profit. Usually a company retains some of it, and the rest is distributed to the shareholders through dividends or profit sharing. Every shareholder that received those dividends knew how big his or her share of FTP was, i.e. everyone knew at any given distribution how much dividends were paid in total. Everyone must have realized that they paid out way more than what would have been justified by the actual profits, especially the board members, because they knew what the exact profits were.

I don`t get how durrrr goes out there and tells the world that he thinks the actions of the board members were not intentional. Or that he thinks it was just one bad decision w/ many bad to follow. There`s a reason why the DOJ called FTP a ponzi, not only because it sounds sexy (as Noah would put it) but also because money was distributed that was not linked to profits. I don`t get how Andrew Robl brings up that he believes that Chris Ferguson is a good man, because he invested most of his money in charity. If you wanna be Robin Hood, adjust to us living in 2011.

Seriously people, everyone w/ a half brain could`ve logically deducted that those dividend payments were in no relation to the actual profits. Greed.

edit: I wanna add that I don`t believe that FTP was a ponzi scheme, because a ponzi does not have an actual source of profits, or creates value, which FTP clearly did. However, I want to emphazise that if you only look at the dividend policy, "part" of it was clearly a ponzi scheme.

What we know is that the phantom deposits accounted for $128m. Before Black Friday the US had seized $115m and that rogue payment processor stole $42m. These should all have been accounted for as a cost of business and that money in the player funds should have been replaced from their income. Instead they thought that they could pretend it hadn't happened and decided to continue to rinse out dividends. Sigh.

[RNauta]

If he has previously represented FTP, and takes on new related clients that for some reason in the future turn against FTP, it would lead to a conflict of interest, or at least an ethical question since he might know confidential information. So I think it would be really unlikely that it would happen.

[striker_1]

Originally Posted by RNauta

From what I understood from what he was saying earlier, he's strictly a corporate lawyer for financial matters. It would be a stretch for him to change 100% and start representing individuals.

Jeff ifrah website:

Success upon success in complex, high-stakes cases have earned Jeff an international reputation, particularly for his work representing companies and individuals involved in Internet businesses. Experience and know-how make Jeff a formidable opponent.

[alexuuus]

Btw. one thing i dont unterstand:

- 128M were not deducted from US accounts
- 120M stolen from a payment processor
- 100M seized by DOJ since 2007
- 60M in accounts on black friday

No clue about the real numbers, but it was something like this. that were round about like 400M and there were 390M in player accounts on the site. So, where come the 330M from, that the management has put in their own pockets? Yeah, of course they are paid by our money, but is there a slight possibility, that these were simply payments running due to big accounting-problems within full tilt and most owners didnt even know about that? They should received the money as normal ?Like even Lederer and Ferguson ?

[GBP04]

just realized my full tilt RSA token doesn't work anymore

lol

[FargoPokerPlayer]

It is a virtual certainty that one attorney cannot represent more than one individual in the Full Tilt matter because it would almost certainly be a conflict of interest. An attorney can represent more than one co-defendant in a civil or criminal case if the clients' interests are exactly the same and they both consent. With the same attorney you cannot employ the "other guy did it defense, not me". Hence, cannot happen especially with the great likelihood of a criminal indictment. The U.S. Attorney would not use "Ponzi" in his statement unless a sealed indictment has already been signed or one is on its way.

[_*PSTONE*_]

http://www.poker.org/news/epic-poker...erguson-13857/

FYI....Epic Poker League ethics committee acts swiftly...Oh the irony

"Epic Poker additionally informs that committee member Andy Bloch, an original member of Team Full Tilt, recused himself from consideration of the issue, and that while League Commissioner Annie Duke, sister of Howard Lederer, is a non-voting member of the committee, she does not participate in any committee decisions that involve league member discipline."

[PokerXanadu]

Could someone do a quick overview of the FTP finances for the duration of its existence in the format below? I think there is enough info around to get a close approximation of most of the figures. I'd love to see it all in one place (as of 4/15/11 or whatever date makes sense):

Earnings (Rake & Fees):
Operational Expenditures:
Cash on Hand:

Distributions to Owners/Board Members:

US Player Balances:
ROW Player Balances:
Cash Equivalent Owed to Players in Points, Rakeback & Other Rewards:
Owed to Affiliates:

Phantom Deposits:
Recoverable Phantom Deposits (balance remains in player account):
Outstanding Loans to Pros:

DOJ pre-BF Seizures:
DOJ BF Seizures:
Stolen by Payment Processors:

[vamooose]

Originally Posted by _*PSTONE*_

http://www.poker.org/news/epic-poker...erguson-13857/

FYI....Epic Poker League ethics committee acts swiftly...Oh the irony

Old news now but funniest comment I read is that this was like banning Gadaffi from the US presidential race.

Decide to ban two guys (5 months too late) when we now know it's not likely they'll be turning up for tournaments on US soil