FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)

[yesright]

Its now only 6 days from the hearing and I still dont know the answer to the following question.

What does "Ring Fencing of identified player funds under their control" mean.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3687

I keep asking and I think its VERY important going into the hearing on the 19th.

[vamooose]

Originally Posted by Mark275

whats newest FTP/UB news? are they waiting for someone to manup and buy it? imo if ftp isnt coming back to USA they have no incentive to repay everybody

They are waiting for a extremely rich and stupid investor who absolutely adores risk which, contrary to popular belief, are few and far between

Originally Posted by yesright

What does "Ring Fencing of identified player funds under their control" mean.I keep asking and I think its VERY important going into the hearing on the 19th.

I think AGCC will insist on the money obviously being in separate account (ring fenced) and then check that account frequently (weekly whilst on parole!) to ensure not being transferred to support payroll etc i.e. must have $300m minimum on deposit in separate account at all times.

Pokerstars and Isle of Man Gaming Board ensure players funds are ring fenced outside of company assets.

Be interesting to see whether AGCC insist that the ~$300m is outside or allow inside the company assets.

There would be no point ring fencing the $300m funds if the monies are ultimately subject to seizure by these 3x damages Class Action Lawsuits within the US after the licence was regranted, that's for sure!

It may well transpire that the class action lawsuits are the final nail in FTP coffin by limiting further world trade

[Hash1982]

Originally Posted by la6ki

A very naive question, but please comment. What is the likelihood of the following scenario:

1. An investor buys the ROW player base + the software from FT for >$150M, those players get their money back and/or continue to play with it when FT reopens.

2. Current owners pay back US players with the money they got from the investors, in order to avoid legal action.

Again, don't call these assumptions names, I know they might be optimistic/wishful thinking to some. What is the likelihood of each or both of these happening atm? Thoughts?

1. This is what FTP is trying to do at the moment. By the first bolded part are you implying the investors just buy the ROW player base and software only? If you are, this is not possible as FTPs assets, including the software are subject to forfeiture in the civl case against them. AFAIK, if an investor wants to buy FTP, thay have to buy all of FTP's companies.

2. To my understanding, FTP's value is such now that the owners are likely selling the company for nothing and are probably willing to give the company away to anyone who can repay US players, pay DOJ fine and have enough money in the bank to cover all the ROW players' $$$'s.

Avoid what legal action? The DOJ criminal case vs them? If Bitar and Burtnick pay back the USA players this will likely help their case against the DOJ.

[la6ki]

Originally Posted by Hash1982

1. This is what FTP is trying to do at the moment. By the first bolded part are you implying the investors just buy the ROW player base and software only? If you are, this is not possible as FTPs assets, including the software are subject to forfeiture in the civl case against them. AFAIK, if an investor wants to buy FTP, thay have to buy all of FTP's companies.

2. To my understanding, FTP's value is such now that the owners are likely selling the company for nothing and are probably willing to give the company away to anyone who can repay US players, pay DOJ fine and have enough money in the bank to cover all the ROW players' $$$'s.

Avoid what legal action? The DOJ criminal case vs them? If Bitar and Burtnick pay back the USA players this will likely help their case against the DOJ.

If the bolded part is the case, what are they negotiating about exactly? They are basically giving the company for free, what else can the investors ask for?

[Hash1982]

Originally Posted by yesright

Its now only 6 days from the hearing and I still dont know the answer to the following question.

What does "Ring Fencing of identified player funds under their control" mean.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3687

I keep asking and I think its VERY important going into the hearing on the 19th.

From previous thread, read from here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...l#post27975835

Link with info explaining ring-fencing:

http://www.egrmagazine.com/blog/1682...approval.thtml

[daveh07]

Basically what Full Tilt did is equivalent to you walking into a casino and buying $2000 in chips and at the end of a days gambling you have $2200 and you go to cashout at the same place you bought the chips and the casino telling you "sorry but it looks like we gambled with a large portion of our money and an investment went bad so we can't pay you anything, have a nice day"

[yesright]

Originally Posted by vamooose

They are waiting for a extremely rich and stupid investor who absolutely adores risk which, contrary to popular belief, are few and far between




I think AGCC will insist on the money obviously being in separate account (ring fenced) and then check that account frequently (weekly whilst on parole!) to ensure not being transferred to support payroll etc i.e. must have $300m minimum on deposit in separate account at all times.Pokerstars and Isle of Man Gaming Board ensure players funds are ring fenced outside of company assets.

Be interesting to see whether AGCC insist that the ~$300m is outside or allow inside the company assets.

There would be no point ring fencing the $300m funds if the monies are ultimately subject to seizure by these 3x damages Class Action Lawsuits within the US after the licence was regranted, that's for sure!

It may well transpire that the class action lawsuits are the final nail in FTP coffin by limiting further world trade

While I agree with what you are saying..... do we know what the AGCC have done to ensure FTP have kept any player funds seperate since 29th June?

Does the AGCC have powers to check if player funds have remained unspent since June 29th?

If FTP went against the AGCC and have spent player money since that time is that not a reasonable grounds for deliberate fraud.

We know the AGCC have virtually no powers of sanction except to remove the licence but if deliberate fraud could be proven it would make future court cases interesting.

We need someone like Noah to ask questions of the AGCC before the meeting.

I think this "ring fencing" could be the most important issue at the AGCC meeting.

The AGCC gave FTP time to find an investor but on the proviso that they didnt spend any player funds.

Did that happen? I would like to know.

[daveh07]

The AGCC has a lot of blame for all of this. They were suppose to be the ones to check the safeguards so this type of situation did not occur. They should be shut down and charged with criminal penalties.

[yesright]

Originally Posted by Hash1982

From previous thread, read from here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...l#post27975835

Link with info explaining ring-fencing:

http://www.egrmagazine.com/blog/1682...approval.thtml

Both of the above doesnt really explain what the AGCC did in this case.

We know they changed the statement from "ring fencing all cash" to "Ring fencing player funds"

What checks and balances have they used since the 29th to ensure that player money has not been spent?

Wernt we told that player money wasnt segregated so it sounds like NONE of the funds were identified as player funds?

[Hash1982]

Originally Posted by la6ki

If the bolded part is the case, what are they negotiating about exactly? They are basically giving the company for free, what else can the investors ask for?

I presume FTP owners have a figure in mind of the $$$ they would contribute to US Players. ie 'we'll (FTP owners) give x and you (investors) give y'

[jhn_lundgren]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

Well doesnt he also owe a fellow FTP pro a LOT of money currently?

I've heard $4mm....does that jive with your figure?

[oneonth3run]

I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed, but is it possible to have our money unfrozen by the DOJ to be returned to players? Should we be writing letters and emails to them en masse asking to release our money?

[jhn_lundgren]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

Bwin/Party has a valuation at over 1bn $$$. A decimated FT, off 66% from their pre BF player would still have a larger player base than Party. So even if they lost 80% of their player base, it would be possible for a site with that size to be worth 500 million. This is NOT me saying that FTP is worth that amount.

How the hell could FTP screw this up so badly. Whether people want to hear it or not, their business had insanely high value on 4/14 (including all their liabilities), should have been worth a lot less but still a ton to an investor on 4/16, but post 6/29, it suddenly becomes anyone's guess what they are worth. It's amazing poker players could ever play a hand this badly.

Poker only a portion of Bwin's business...have sports and casino.

[insidemanpoker]

Originally Posted by jhn_lundgren

Poker only a portion of Bwin's business...have sports and casino.

Yes, but Party's estimate valuation before the merger was >1bn. I read an article that their combined value isn't much more than Party's was before which seemed strange, but either way, when party was independent, it was valued at similar amounts.

[momo_the_kid]

Originally Posted by oneonth3run

I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed, but is it possible to have our money unfrozen by the DOJ to be returned to players? Should we be writing letters and emails to them en masse asking to release our money?

I encourage everybody with money stuck send e-mail. letters or call DOJ to express their dissatisfaction with the FTP situation and ask DOJ to do sth. to help US players get their money back. As US citizens, you have every right to ask the government to protect your interest. If they get enough e-mails, letters or calls, DOJ may put extra pressure on FTP owners to pay and it is also possible that they may unfreeze some money to pay players. Bottom line is that it will never hurt as it is not like you will get arrested for writing or calling them or anything. We spend enough time complaining on this forum already. Complaining to DOJ could be much more productive for our time.