FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)

[jakedamus]

Someone call this bloke he will buy FTP.

[V-Delaney]

Originally Posted by jakedamus

Someone call this bloke and ask why he will didn't buy FTP.

FYP. Really wouldn't surprise me if someone this involved in the industry has looked into it already

[Hdemet]

Re Possible Packer Interest:

Originally Posted by V-Delaney

FYP. Really wouldn't surprise me if someone this involved in the industry has looked into it already

...and discarded any notion of getting involved in any way with such a corrupt corporation who has fritterred away player funds and not even had the decency to apologise for it.

FTP has not only robbed the players of their funds but kicked them in the nuts too while they were down by completely ignoring them and blaming everyone but themsleves for the stolen player funds.

FTP owners please feel free to prove me wrong......

[Hdemet]

Here's my guess at the next FTP Official Statement:

We are really truly and deeply sorry that we now all find oursleves in this mess and are doing everything we can to try and get all the players their money back wherever they may reside in the wolrd.

It is completely not the players fault that all their/your money is gone but we are going to make sure that you get it back in one way or another even if it means we have to sell our assets both as individuals and as a group of companies as with hindsight the money rightfully belongs to you all - the players.

Your money was not protected in the way it should have been and we can only reassure you that we will do whatever it takes to make this right.

So if you can be patient and give us a little time (and try not to die while waiting) we are sure you will eventually see that nothing that has happened is our fault and that all player money is safe albeit as assets we have personally built up over the seven years of FTP's existence.

Thank you for your understanding and we appreciate all that you have done for us to date as a company and for the individual owners.

[LedaSon]

Originally Posted by Sdgullsfan84

No, there is a very big difference between the allegations you made (which is that the owners themselves are fraudsters) and the charges brought against the company, which merely named the owners as defendants. You clearly are incapable of understanding the difference, hence the reason for my post. Please stop pontificating on matters which are clearly beyond your realm of expertise.

TOS: Don't tell anyone what to post or not to post.

Actually, RB is allegedly an owner of FTP - he was indicted for Bank Fraud - what is more clear that that? There is a Rem order against the Company and an a criminal indictment against owners (of several of the poker companies and payment processors). Besides RB (and other named owners) where in any post have we directly accused the owners of fraud? You cannot quote something we never said. We may have speculated, but never accused. And you clearly are incapable of reading if you make this statement. Many people in these threads have actually accused the owners of fraud, but we have not. Finally...Fraudsters isn't a word and it's not certainly one we would ever use...

Nevertheless, we do believe that owners other than RB knew a lot about the operation and were involved in running the business, there is plenty of evidence to support that publicly, but we will leave others to discuss it.

We don't know what your problem is, but there is no reason to attack...we have not attacked you, but if you prefer that sort attitude then going forward will act the same toward you.

Originally Posted by Sdgullsfan84

None of us know any details about the situation so it's totally irresponsible to throw words out like that.

How do you know what people who write in these threads know or don't know or even what there qualifications are to post or comment? Do you have a direct pipeline to God? Do you know personally all the people on these threads? What do you know about what others know or don't know? There are plenty of people on these threads who clearly knew things well before they came out and said them. Harry is one glaring example of this point. You are entitled to your opinion, just as many others are, but don't claim to know what others know or don't know.

[Harlow_Hammer]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

Do not take one line out of context please.

The crime was players money was stolen...I did NOT say the owners stole it.

Players money is not where it should be therefore it is missing which = stolen

I stated what crime had been committed and the rest that followed was about who was responsible for that crime

Defintion of Steal: To take without the owners consent

FTP took and used player funds without permission and DID NOT RETURN IT

I didn't say owners either - just "they", meaning who ever took the money.

"Players money is not where it should be therefore it is missing which = stolen" - no. It is not where it should be = missing.

"Defintion of Steal: To take without the owners consent". No. Definition of stealing is taking something without the owners consent and intending to permanently deprive them of it.

Example: I take $5 from your wallet without your permission. I return it later that day. You have not had $5 stolen because it has been returned. Granted, I had no right to take it - but try having me arrested. You cannot, because there is no crime.

[Hippy80]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

The guilt or innocence of the owners is a very interesting point.

One key question is what did the shareholders/owners of FTP know about the accounts and the daily running of the company?

I suppose the first thing to decide is if a crime has been committed and if so what that crime is.

Following on from that you have to determine who was responsible for that crime.

So lets address the first point of whether a crime has been committed.

From where I am standing the answer has to be a definitive yes and that the crime was one of stealing funds from the players.

These funds were being held by FTP and now they are not there so FTP have to take complete responsibility for this as they were not entitled to spend that money or risk it being lost to any thrid party. This they clearly failed to do but whatever those reasons were it does not absolve them of the responsibility for looking after those funds and the complete guilt for losing those funds.

So who comprises FTP is the next question that needs to be addressed.

The board and management of the various FTP companies committed acts and took decisions that led to the loss of these player funds so they clearly have some responsibility for the loss of player funds.

So now we need to ask what involvement FTP owners had in the decision making process that leads up to the players losing their funds and whether lack of knowledge constitutes a valid defence.

I would assert that even if the owners had no knowledge at the time that player funds were being used by the company for their own benefit at the expense of the players that ignorance is no excuse and does not constitute a valid defence in the eyes of the law.

As those player funds never belonged to anyone other than the players and because this money along with all other money for operational costs and company profits etc etc were all comingled into the same pool or bank accounts it is clear that if those accounts are emptied and left without any balances that the player funds have been taken from their rightful owners and whoever received funds from those accounts should be forced to return them as they represent stolen money from the players.

If someone goes into a bank and robs it and whilst running away drops his suitcase full of stolen money in a hedge and I happen to walk by and pick it up am I entitled to keep it?

I may not have known it was stolen when I found it lying in the bushes of Central Park where it was discarded but on opening the suitcase several months later back at home and seeing a note inside the suitcase stating "This money is the property of Bank of America" am I legally still entitled to keep that money now that I know it was stolen?

I think not and imagine I would do jail time for keeping that stolen money and refusing to hand it in if I am subsequently caught with it.

As an honest law abiding individual however should I voluntarily decide to return that money to the bank I feel certain I would receive a reward of say 10% and not do any jail time or suffer a conviction for keeping something that righfully did not belong to me.

So at the risk of boring you all to tears I suggest all FTP owners return that stolen money keeping 10% of the dividends as a reward for their honesty for doing the right thing so that at least the players get some of their money back.

So to summarize and answer the original question......

"Are the owners of FTP guilty of any crime?"

I offer a categorical and unequivocal "YES" with that crime being "Possessing stolen money that belongs to the players." (If this were ever put to a jury I reckon they would agree too but I know little about US law)

Time will tell whether other crimes such as fraud will follow on but we need a bit more information than is currently available before answering that one as applied to the owners.

Sorry for regurgitating what seems obvious from my standpoint and has been presented a zillion times previously but think its important to try and explain things that have happened in simple terms because I often get lost amongst all the legal jargon used to define what constitutes this or that crime and who is reponsible.

Ok, the following is a legal opinion (but not from a someone who holds a law degree, but has worked in finance and business for many years), and may not be very popular.

Player deposits on FTP were never rated as secure, and as such live and died by the status of the company. This was made very clear on the AGCC website, but maybe less so on FTP's site. The Alderney legislation is going to be the one we need to look at most closely, as the company that players held the contracts with were Alderney based, and were the holders of the AGCC licence.

What this means is that player funds were legally considered a company asset, and are still legally considered such. this means that if a "White Knight" investor/New Owner isn't found players can attempt to action civil actions against the FTP companies, most likely through the Alderney/Guernsey Legal System.

This means that apart from the DoJ cases against certain members of FTP Management, none of the owners are in line for a Criminal Case (unless they get pulled into the DoJ cases). As much as it's horrible for us, running a company poorly isn't a crime. Any payment to the owners would have been authorised by the board (and the way it seems to have been done, Tiltware was paid for the lease of it's software, so it's legally removed from customer interaction, making even a civil case really difficult) and as such will be nigh on impossible to claw back, as it was done legally.

In short, while what has been done with player funds is morally and ethically "dubious" at best, I'm pretty sure it's not illegal, and no criminal charges can be brought as theft. Actual ownership of player funds is also a legal grey area, but I'm not going to go into that.

If FTP declares bankruptcy the best players can expect is to become registered creditors to FTP, and you'll likely get cents back on the dollar.

As stated above, I'm not a lawyer, but this is my current read on the situation. However, if we start to talk fraud and misrepresentation, there may be a case to answer. that would take a legal mind far better than mine to go through though.

[Hdemet]

"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to remain silent"

I swear on my word of honour that if I was an FTP owner I would make a public statement along the lines of I am pledging $X million to a fund for the players to be paid back whether I knew what was going on or not at FTP and whether I had an input into how the company was run or not.

I could not in good consciense keep hold of any money I felt belonged to someone else and which was stolen from them to fascilitate my being paid dividends

It just wouldnt feel right and especially so as this is a privately owned company by people who were trusted and respected within the poker community.

I eagerly await the first in the FTP ownership group to break ranks becasue I know that some of them have integrity and honour and await hearing from them publicly with such pledges.

[Hdemet]

Originally Posted by Harlow_Hammer

I didn't say owners either - just "they", meaning who ever took the money.

"Players money is not where it should be therefore it is missing which = stolen" - no. It is not where it should be = missing.

"Defintion of Steal: To take without the owners consent". No. Definition of stealing is taking something without the owners consent and intending to permanently deprive them of it.

Example: I take $5 from your wallet without your permission. I return it later that day. You have not had $5 stolen because it has been returned. Granted, I had no right to take it - but try having me arrested. You cannot, because there is no crime.

FTP have been REPEATEDLY asked by players for their money back and THEY HAVE NOT PAID IT...just like if you hadnt returned the money to my wallet.

This is a CRITICAL and RELEVANT difference.

It is now CLEARLY theft.

Please show me where FTP have returned the player money??????????????????

[Harlow_Hammer]

Originally Posted by Hippy80

Ok, the following is a legal opinion (but not from a someone who holds a law degree, but has worked in finance and business for many years), and may not be very popular.

Player deposits on FTP were never rated as secure, and as such live and died by the status of the company. This was made very clear on the AGCC website, but maybe less so on FTP's site. The Alderney legislation is going to be the one we need to look at most closely, as the company that players held the contracts with were Alderney based, and were the holders of the AGCC licence.

What this means is that player funds were legally considered a company asset, and are still legally considered such. this means that if a "White Knight" investor/New Owner isn't found players can attempt to action civil actions against the FTP companies, most likely through the Alderney/Guernsey Legal System.

This means that apart from the DoJ cases against certain members of FTP Management, none of the owners are in line for a Criminal Case (unless they get pulled into the DoJ cases). As much as it's horrible for us, running a company poorly isn't a crime. Any payment to the owners would have been authorised by the board (and the way it seems to have been done, Tiltware was paid for the lease of it's software, so it's legally removed from customer interaction, making even a civil case really difficult) and as such will be nigh on impossible to claw back, as it was done legally.

In short, while what has been done with player funds is morally and ethically "dubious" at best, I'm pretty sure it's not illegal, and no criminal charges can be brought as theft. Actual ownership of player funds is also a legal grey area, but I'm not going to go into that.

If FTP declares bankruptcy the best players can expect is to become registered creditors to FTP, and you'll likely get cents back on the dollar.

As stated above, I'm not a lawyer, but this is my current read on the situation. However, if we start to talk fraud and misrepresentation, there may be a case to answer. that would take a legal mind far better than mine to go through though.

+1 ... And I do have a law degree

[SuperJez]

They must all be **** scared of the DOJ discovering that they are actually owners in this company, I doubt any of them will break ranks and speak out for that reason.

And also although I believe players funds have morally been stolen I dont think we have any legal claim to them. We chose to give them to FTP. (under the belief that FTP would honour the numbers in the cashier for cold hard cash but eally without a legal debt enforceable in any country for that amount)

[Harlow_Hammer]

Originally Posted by Hdemet

FTP have been REPEATEDLY asked by players for their money back and THEY HAVE NOT PAID IT...just like if you hadnt returned the money to my wallet.

This is a CRITICAL and RELEVANT difference.

It is now CLEARLY theft.

Please show me where FTP have returned the player money??????????????????

Obviously they haven't returned the money. YET. This is not to say that they will or will not.

If when they took the money they had reasonable belief that the company profits were sufficient to repay and would indeed repay they money, it is not theft.

They must INTEND to not pay it back.

[Hippy80]

The Legal definition of theft is (and I'm paraphrasing here):

"The intention to permanently deprive the owner."

If FTP intended, or still intend to pay the players back, it's not theft, and can't be legally determined as such.

Also, given that the players funds are considered company assets under Alderney/Guernsey law, it would need legal precedent to show the players still legally own these funds.

[Hdemet]

Originally Posted by Hippy80

Ok, the following is a legal opinion (but not from a someone who holds a law degree, but has worked in finance and business for many years), and may not be very popular.

Player deposits on FTP were never rated as secure, and as such live and died by the status of the company. This was made very clear on the AGCC website, but maybe less so on FTP's site. The Alderney legislation is going to be the one we need to look at most closely, as the company that players held the contracts with were Alderney based, and were the holders of the AGCC licence.

What this means is that player funds were legally considered a company asset, and are still legally considered such. this means that if a "White Knight" investor/New Owner isn't found players can attempt to action civil actions against the FTP companies, most likely through the Alderney/Guernsey Legal System.

This means that apart from the DoJ cases against certain members of FTP Management, none of the owners are in line for a Criminal Case (unless they get pulled into the DoJ cases). As much as it's horrible for us, running a company poorly isn't a crime. Any payment to the owners would have been authorised by the board (and the way it seems to have been done, Tiltware was paid for the lease of it's software, so it's legally removed from customer interaction, making even a civil case really difficult) and as such will be nigh on impossible to claw back, as it was done legally.

In short, while what has been done with player funds is morally and ethically "dubious" at best, I'm pretty sure it's not illegal, and no criminal charges can be brought as theft. Actual ownership of player funds is also a legal grey area, but I'm not going to go into that.

If FTP declares bankruptcy the best players can expect is to become registered creditors to FTP, and you'll likely get cents back on the dollar.

As stated above, I'm not a lawyer, but this is my current read on the situation. However, if we start to talk fraud and misrepresentation, there may be a case to answer. that would take a legal mind far better than mine to go through though.

I readily admit I have presented a very simplistic scenario of how I view the nissing player funds and just because I hold that view doesnt mean it would stand up legally and I am certainly no lawyer.

I also do undertsand a little about Limited Liability companies and appreciate that directors and shareholders are afforded protection against liabilities otherwise no companies would ever exist (within certain limits and allowing for criminal acts).

However I really cannot see how it can be argued that the player deposits were at any time viewed as anything other than security which the company (FTP) held and would allow you to use against chips that were in play on the site in their poker games to basically show that you had the money to cover any possible cash game or tournament losses. I also cannot see how it can be argued that at any time those funds belonged to the company.

No doubt and obviously it will be a complicated and drawn out legal procedure to establish the actual status of the player deposits and funds but I think and hope that the ebnd result will be to designate those player funds as having belonged to the players at all times and that FTP were merely custodians of those funds and responsible for looking after them.

On a side note it would be interesting to see if there is any legal distinction between depsoited player funds and winnings attributed to players.

eg If I had $10000 in my FTP account and $5k was a depsoit and the other $5k was winnings accumulated over the past year is there a legal difference between each half or $5k of these funds?

[Pls try to bluf]

I think whatever % of money we have on there compared to what the company is worth we should have that % stake in ft and have checks coming every month once back up and running almost like we are part owners in a sense lol just a thought