There are plenty of stable professionals, across all buy-in levels. I have plenty of friends who grind stakes as small as 2/5nl yet still make a solid living, own houses, have perfect credit, and don't owe anyone money. You have never heard of them and probably never will.

But MANY of the players you have seen on TV, even the ones who seemed like super smart, capable people, are busto. It's sad how many once-upon-a-time-ballas I have seen sitting on a small stack of $5 chips in a tiny cash game looking completely broke and withered. Many of the same people I idolized in college during the poker boom I now laugh at when I see them.

Right, you made fine points, and I actually didn't mean to say that *you* were annoying me per se...I think it's just that I have just known about this dynamic of poker heroes actually being degens for a long time now and that there are a lot of smoke and mirrors in poker, and I guess I am just jaded by that awareness.

As for the second paragraph, that is the central irony of poker, and it's been discussed by people more articulate than me. Some of the same traits that make for great poker players lead to total destruction away from the table. Finding a balance that involves choreographing your best and worst instincts on an ongoing basis is a challenging thing, and that is why so many pros fail at it.

Of course it's sad and occasionally devastating, but it's just one of the realities of the poker life from my perspective.

Hai Erica!

A+

Looks like you cant really trust anyone in the poker world no matter how big their reputation is.

It is insane some of you believe that.

Threadception

^very solid

I have a sneaking suspicion that Lindgren killed a bookie he owed money...
Link

Huge fan of yours, Shane!

On one hand I am upset about Erick's degeneracy, on the other I am *loving* the contributions of Bob, Brandon Adams, and Shane Shleeger.

There is an old saying, that good things often arise from the bad. In a way that is what we are seeing here.


ILBB

Nah, old school is a black eye and threats to Erica until debts are paid.

Exactly, you have to have a disregard for money while you're playing, but proper respect for it when choosing what games to play and, of course, what else to bet (the correct answer usually being nothing ).

Having that natural, reckless disregard for money helped some people to climb quite high in the poker world - of course it helped many, many more just crash and burn, but we never heard of them. If you can't turn it off though...

I suspect that a higher proportion of the "survivors" are basically nits who trained themselves to be aggressive at the table only. I know I'm a nit .

After reading this thread, and others without really posting much over the last few months, I can honestly say I totally bought the HS lifestyle these guys lead and that they were genuinely nice honest people. More fool me. The thing that gets to me is the likes of Ivey make a 'triumphant' return to the Aussie Millions when the guy should be lying low because of Full Tilt. As should all the FT guys IMO. Whilst there may be an old school versus new school debate occurring here, EL should realise times must and always do change. The FT debacle is a domino effect and I just wonder who is going to be next? IMO like I said all these guys should be lying low until the FT issue is sorted players are paid back and use this time to maybe do a little grinding, stop balling and sort their lives out. New school vs old school is irrelevant. This is a new era.

5 months ago I realised I was playing poker too much, not very successfully, unaware of strategy and probably gambling too much. I have spent this time paying debts, getting back to zero, giving up sports betting and working on my game, for my PS comeback in April. I did borrow lost of money here and there but paid it back. That's not old school vs new school. That's common sense. Digging your way out. Before things get out of control.

I think it's too late for eDog now fellow players have rumbled him. But I think people walking his path should take a long hard look at themselves before their dirty laundry is aired on 2+2.

It's a new age Mr Negreanu with new rules! People should no longer check the closet for ghosts at night....they should check 2+2!!!

Mark

Not a link to a video per se but here is Voulgaris' account in the HSP4 thread from August 27, 2007. Given that date, it must have been the fourth season opener, so that should help your search at, say, PokerTube.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...8&postcount=92

This thread is amazing. RJ, I'm glad you hit on a key point -- a person can be pleasant in his interpersonal interactions and still be a totally irresponsible degen (redundant, I know), just like a person can be a total prick and yet still pay off his debts to even his faintest acquaintances. As you said, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

On another side note, how great would a Haralabos Voulgaris V-blog be?

So f'ing true. "TurboTax Tim" Geithner said this past weekend that the IRS is going after people who owe with a vengeance. I would expect Mr. Lindgren will be getting a knock at the door soon enough.

Meanwhile somewhere in north Vegas...

"how old were you then? -i was 21, 22"

wasn't there a thread where someone had heard a rumor lindgren had killed (hit someone with a car? dont remember for sure) someone in the late 90s? searched but unable to find it anymore. the plot thickens! no but seriously, anyone find that thread or was it deleted?

early on in his gambling career he learned that if he could just delay payment for a bit longer there's a chance they would die and eliminate this debt... really seems to be a strategy he took to heart.

The long run really is a killer

Sounds eerily familiar.

Remember back with the poker boom how pokers players were telling everyone how honest and trustworthy they were, and how Barry Greenstein was a white knight who donated to charity? They got to promote themselves directly to the audience, and they bought it.

If I remember correctly, EL mentioned on Poker road interview (don’t remember which one) that when he was propping at San Pablo that a bookie friend of his died. I’m not sure if he owed money or what the details were just remember the interview and that topic coming up.

Apparently it was $5500 .. Which is deep for a prop player who was broke!!!

sick thread...

El knows he his getting railroaded here. I'm 99% sure he is even reading all this thread, I just dont get why these guys to come on here and offer any bit of explaining. If I was getting thrown in this much Sh** I would at least explain that I have no money right now, or I guess if I was just that much of dirtbag I wouldn't reply either......