good read op.

There aren't enough years in one persons life to determine whether a player is a real winning live tournament player...and by 'real' I mean by online standards.

Sure someone might come out with a healthy profit having played 350 large field live tournaments in their life and yes, by definition, they are a winning player but I don't need to start lecturing about sample sizes again here.

There's as much luck as there is skill when it comes to being a successful live tourney player....all you need is balls to gamble it up a bit with big buy-ins early in your career and a little rungood at the start to build upon.

For every hugely successful live tourney pro there's probably another equally skilled bum that, early in their career, got rivered by a 2-outer that defined the difference in their destinies.

nice read,ty.

not everyone with money spends it frivolously...some people have money without showing the outward trappings of wealth. But yeah, there are times that peeps with the funds piss some away JUST BECAUSE and there are others who could make Lincoln bleed because they pinch the pennies.


I'm not in the B club, but I do have a seven-figure net worth (being older has some perks). The math works though for those of us with smaller accounts to relate to the $5M drop for someone with $1B to play with. To put it in perspective, if I only gross a quarter mil this year (a sizeable drop in gross annual from the past several years), then it is the equivalent to pissing away $1250 somewhere. And yeah, I have had a few bad hours this year where I dropped that playing PLO...

But you know what? It does not cause me to go on life tilt or to look for a bread line or soup kitchen. It does not make me want to sell one of the vehicles or even to stop flying (one of my other hobbies).

OP you are so DUMB!

Your forgetting about variance and those guys you are talking about that look "disgusting" "degenerates" "virgins" "living a shallow life" you are just way jealous of. Dude they dont have to wear a suit or find a passion that contributes to society, and get to sleep in! Awesome! These grinders make 6 figures a year sitting at a computer for 60 hours a week. 6 Figures! thats as much as an average lawyers salary (suckers). Stop hating man!

Surprised that OP isn't crushing the live game. He can watch a televised game and easily ascertain the state of a top players bankroll. In person he can tell the same by their dress and how they carry themselves. Imagine if he applied those reading skills to his opponents hands!!

This year dwan is basically break even, he hasn't made a cent. Where did you get him being up over 4m this year alone? Dwan has made 4.9m since March '08.

Bill Gates in an interview once stated that apart from the obvious expenses such as electricity, water, etc.. things he can't get away from, he only spends about $26 a week on himself. He said he buys himself two magazines a week and that's it.

The impression I get from the OP is that he is somehow under the impression that when a player loses a hand in a cashgame that money just disappears and not that someone else at the table won that money. If all the TV pros you're so obsessed with are losing all their money in cash games there's probably someone sitting there winning that money, ya know?

Where?

Just wondering.

After a hand, Eli Elezra made a comment to Dwan with Dwan responding in a manner, which proves he’s broke. Hellmuth was right to say that will blow his money off sooner or later. I will try to find the exact link to post the comment, as I don’t remember exactly what/where it was.


Where is the video?

Not a masculine soundbite. Did you ever hear of "survival of the fittest"? It has nothing to do with fitness, maybe you didn't get that.

+1

i2 got that feeling

I once heard that if Bill Gates is walking from his limo to an office for a meeting, and sees a $500 bill on the ground, that if he stops to pick it up, he is actually losing money.

yeah... Op makes some observations, which are interesting, and I'm sure there is some truth to some of it. It is generally true that a lot of well-known tournament players have bad bankroll management, need to be backed, have gambling problems and other addictions, etc etc. I mean, the Matusow book, the Stuey Ungar story, etc etc that stuff is not fiction.

But what I don't like is OP's attitude or something... what point is he trying to prove? Ok, so he saw some down on their luck tournament players or something... or noticed that there is not that much of a line between famous and not famous players or whatever... so his thesis is supposed to be that nobody can win at poker? that all poker is luck and all players degenerates? ultimately, he is trying to say that there is not that much skill or knowledge difference between any players, that the game is just luck, and is therefore trying to soothe his own ego or something. this just sounds like a beginner player, an arrogant one at that, probably with family money, that just expects to win. But he can't stand that it takes a long time to figure things out and improve... at bottom he doesn't like the game. he is making excuses just like a loser.

I mean, winners and losers, that's what it's about, right? Character. And this big post about how all the big players are losers, and the why and what-for and all that, just sounds like a big FU and farewell speech or whatever. Just translate the whole OP as "I'm leaving; nobody wins and they're all stupid and who wants to play with you anyways. you'll probably all lose, it's all just luck, and even if you think you're good you're just lucky and you're all just losers anyways. goodbye!!"

am I right?

Hey,

Well you are partly right about a few things. But first of all, let me just tell you that I love poker. I love the thrill, I love sitting on the tables while mingling with other players, I love playing cards. I've been playing too long now, and I've had my ups and downs. I've won $55k in one day and lost it the following week. Just last week I won $4k and lost it the same day, and what I noticed is that I do have bankroll management problems and I thought I was a rare breed until I went to Vegas.

Maybe I was naive before I went in thinking that these players were absolutely glamorous and I was living in this dream that one day I could make it big in the poker world. In fact, I don't need the money. I'm from a very wealthy family and we've got lots of assets/businesses and the main reason I wanted to do well at poker is for the fame first (being a well known bracelet winner) and for the money second.

In fact, if I was chip leader on the final table of the Main Event and somebody offered to give me, say, 6th place money and the bracelet and I give him top prize, I'll probably take it! I don't know, maybe if I'm actually on the final table I wouldn't because that's the feeling I'm getting right now.

I actually left Vegas up a ton, and was happy with my win but wasn't happy with the state of gamblers. I thought I'd see something completely different. I've become a realist and it's quite obvious that most players are losing players. Side gambling or not, they just seem like they've got money issues. Some people are okay about it (Matusow, Bellande) some people hide it.

This isn't a farewell post. It's merely an observation and I thought I'd share it with you guys that's all.

I don't know why there's a lot of 'hate' on this forum. I was simply asking the question "don't you get the feeling?"

I actually want people to convince me otherwise because like I said I love poker, but from all the poker playing people I know, they end up in debt or just on the brink of it.

Thanks

Lets face it, a big slice of the industry cake disappears every year (rough guesses):

Online rake $3,000 million (do they really deserve this much???)
Offline rake $250 m
Travel & other expenses $500m

Offset by some positive juice:

Sponsorship etc $100 m
Rakeback (in whatever form) $1,000 m

Net net there is perhaps $2,500m ($2.5 billion) for the players to cover every year so it doesn't surprise me that almost all players lose money over any decent sample size.

Great read OP.

When you see the types of people poker attracts, and what the lifestyle does to you, it really makes you respect a guy like Helmuth that much more. I'm sure there were a lot of people whose involvment in poker is playing online from mom's basement that laughed when he told Dwan "let's see where you are in 10 years", but the guy has seen countless hotshots come and go.

lol @ people still thinking Dwan 'can never go broke'.

Most of the hate seems to be coming from people who admit to not having even bothered to fully read your post. I think that says enough about them. Ignore them.

Of course you may have misconstrued much of what you observed and I'm sure you'd be the first to accept that possibility. But I read it as just your entertaining personal impressions published on an internet forum; not a thesis.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thanks.

http://highstakesdb.com/profiles/sta...ar/durrrr.aspx

He's up exactly 4m for the year.

Where did you get him breaking even?

Cannot believe I am even dignifying you with a response but you should be banned because you apparently just go into threads and make **** up.

You are a dreamer and need to sort your life out, not to mention your BS spoils threads (however I believe the op spoilt this one by making it)

Ive looked at your previous posts and Its funny how many of them start with... ''I was that guy'' then go on to spout off some bull about whatever topic they are talking about. You have done it several times and therefore I think you should be banned.

The problem is that you mixed in some observations with opinions out of left field and tried to present it as fact.

Things l like, I saw (insert famous player here) use a coupon with lunch like a hobo therefore he is broke.

Yes, tons of "name" players are broke and hide it. There is probably an equal number of players who you saw but didn't recognise who are doing very well professionally. Someone like Gus who loses tons at FT is possibly freerolling because of his equity stake in the company etc.

Just throwing names out there and guessing their net worth / mental state / homeless situation is just a pointless exercise.

+1

The nature of poker decides that you will look like desperate and awful once a while, every one will have a bad day. Pros look good on TV but when you meet your heroes in person, most of time, you will feel disappointed.

A title of book sums the poker player life at the very best: "high stake, low life"

So thinking it twice, before you would like to make an easy living in a tough way.

Good luck every one!

the problem is that OP tries to put EVERY poker player into his one-size fits all model...however, the reality is that not everyone is looking to make their primary livelihood from playing cards.

OP also has an epic fail with the comment of "Poker players are essentially gamblers and degenerates, which means that in the end, they will lose almost all they have."

In the course of shoehorning everyone into the same box, OP forgets about the segment (quite probably sizeable) that views poker recreationally and will occasionally take their shots at tourneys, which include the Main Event.

And of course, let us not forget the fail of the implied presumption that everyone at nosebleeds who has a bad day will forever have a bad day. I noticed that they conveniently chose not to address the fact that, on a scale basis, these events are often no different than those of us who might have a bad day in the market or who drop a few thousand in a few hours.

But I guess trying to toss out a wall of text posing as conjecture and innuendo does not work as well if you actually try to look at the situation objectively...