Originally Posted by dougfabz

do u seriously use a thesaurus in NVG or are you so vain as to actually spend time writing pointlessly arcane terms.

Originally Posted by CursedbyaGypsy

I'm sick of this billionaire comment.

1. A friend of mine in university was from a billionaire family and would tell us how important money was to her father and grandfather. In fact, they had the nicest house, cars etc but they would hate buying these things because they'd rather invest it in something else and make more money.

2. You have someone like Bill Gates who is 'rumored' to be quite cheap (Even though I don't believe it because of his charity work). You have someone like Beal who specifically stated that he was annoyed in losing that much money against the pros in Vegas etc.

3. You guys can't compare $1b to $1,000...somebody said its like having $1000 and only losing $5. Well, $5+$5+$5 adds up. The fact that the billionaire loses it in a card game as well makes it even more worrying and annoying

You guys don't have $1b so don't try to pretend like you understand how losing $5m feels. Its a lot regardless of how much your worth.

Originally Posted by CursedbyaGypsy

Don't you get the feeling that almost all poker players are getting broke?

Well, I've noticed recently that almost all poker players enter a bad run and eventually go broke. The problem is, we never know about it and are programmed to believe that these players are Gods and that the poker lifestyle is heaven.

I've been playing poker for only about 4 years now and my dream was to visit Vegas and participate in the World Series of Poker Main Event. That dream came true when I won a seat on Pokerstars playing an $11 re-buy tournament. I was extremely excited knowing that I would be staying the Bellagio and that I will get to see all my heroes on TV.

Since I'm a huge tournament fan, I was more excited to see the likes of Erik Seidel, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Hellmuth etc as opposed to Tom Dwan, Patrick Antonius and Doyle Brunson.

Anyway, when I entered the poker room at Bellagio, I saw almost everyone and actually played with some. I was surprised to see that almost all these poker players we see on TV look like wrecks, bums and just plain degenerates.

I remember seeing Gus Hansen walking around the poker room with his cheap flip flops every couple of days saying hi to people. He looked like one of these people that really wanted to play but couldn't. He looked like a person wishing for someone to lend him $500k to sit down.

I saw Chino Rheem settling a debt with some other Asian guy outside the poker room in quite angry fashion.

I saw Johnny Chan looking so tilted that going near him would be a huge mistake. I saw him lose a 'measly' $3,000 in one pot against Jeff Lisandro playing on a mixed game table and just looking like he wanted to kill somebody. It honestly seemed like it was so much money for him. I also met a guy who played in the NBC Heads Up tournament (He was some kind of qualifier) telling me that Chan actually asked him for money.

I sat down with Alan Smurfit who was a Bracelet winner from Ireland a few years back during the $1,000 satellite to the WPT Bellagio event (He won close to $500,000 dollars during his bracelet run). It eventually came down to Alan, some Armenian businessman and myself. That Irish guy had his bracelet in front of him the whole sit and go and it seemed so intimidating until when we were three handed and I was chip leader and he actually BEGGED ME to make a deal. "You understand that making a deal is better for you right? I mean you could lose all you have in two hands! Trust me, you need to make the deal, you seem new to this." He went on and on about it until I pushed him all in with Ac3c and he called with Ad3d. I flopped the nut flush. He got up without even saying good game and left. I eventually won the satellite but took the money instead and played the $25-$50 PLO cash game they had in the poker room, which leads me to my next encounter…

I've been dying to play PLO at Bellagio because the only poker room that had PLO at the time was Venetian. I found myself up $12,000 for the trip until now so I decided to sit down. I had Tommy Vedes to my right and Nenad Medic to my left. I also had Billy Gazes sitting in front of me, and some crazy Spanish Full Tilt Poker pro (can't recall his name).

I put in $3,000 only. Left up $12,500. All my double ups came from Tommy Vedes. This guy just won the Festa al Lago event at the WPT for more than $1,1 million. The guy was playing $25-$50 like a homeless person was playing $1k-$2k. After every hand he complained about how unlucky he was, regardless how much he lost in the hand. "This is sick! I'm running like ****! ****!" After every hand he'd lose he'd get up and smoke a cigarette outside looking like it was the end of the world. He had restless leg syndrome like I've never seen before in my entire life. I thought I was bad until I met him. Having said that, he's an amazingly nice guy but the dealer told me that he loses tons on sports betting. In fact when we were out for a cigarette he was trying to place a $20,000 on a baseball game.

At the WSOP, I was excited. I was hoping to sit down and find myself on a table full of pros. I didn't care about making it deep at this point. I just wanted to play live poker with the best. I sat down and to my disgust I found a table full of amateurs, until I focused to my right. On my right, there was this guy, complaining about every hand the dealer dealt him. Literally every hand. Then I looked closer to his shirt and found "Team Pokerstars" on it. The guy looked quite familiar so I asked him who he was and he told me he was Tony Hachem. During the hand, Tony is the most obnoxious person to sit with. It seemed like that guy was down $2m dollars. But quite surprisingly, he was the coolest and nicest guy I've met in Vegas, but quite a douche to the dealers (he never said anything directly to the dealer but he would imply that they are retarded). Again seems like he’s losing a lot of money regardless of his brothers wealth or his tournament winnings.



If you watch some of the new poker show episodes, you'd see some amazing moments you'd never think you'd see. You'd see players that you think are invincible looking weak. You'd see players that you think had a bottomless well of money seem broke. I first noticed this watching the new Poker After Dark cash game. After a hand, Eli Elezra made a comment to Dwan with Dwan responding in a manner, which proves he’s broke. Hellmuth was right to say that will blow his money off sooner or later. I will try to find the exact link to post the comment, as I don’t remember exactly what/where it was.

Dwan seems like he's 'broke' in relation to the stakes he plays. This was probably after Isildur cleaned him out online. I'm sure he can come right back from it, but again it was extremely weird watching him look vulnerable. This was uncanny in comparison to his first season on High Stakes Poker when he had that war with Barry Greenstein. When Barry hit the 9 on the turn to crack Tom's aces, the Internet sensation did not move an inch…. just had a sip of his coffee and muttered "Nice Hand." You can tell that at the time, Dwan had money to burn, probably because of Guy Laliberte donking off millions of dollars on Full Tilt Poker.

On Pokerstars the Big Game, I heard Doyle Brunson say something that I wouldn't ever think he'd say after losing a $200k pot against Barry Greenstein: "This is the story of my life." In fact, while at the Bellagio, I asked more than 5 dealers about the big game in Bobby's Room and who is the biggest winner and loser, and they all confirmed to me that Brunson was the player that was losing excessively and had financial problems.

Also on Pokerstars the Big Game and actually on High Stakes Poker prior to that, I got the feeling that Jason Mercier was playing with too much money that he can handle. He looked uncomfortable in every situation. When cards were turned over after an all in situation, he looked like he was about to cry with fear. This was extremely evident with the hand when he flopped the nuts with 5-6 off against Tony G's set of 3's. When Tony G elected to run the whole thing once, Jason Mercier looked like he wanted to just take the money back and forget about the hand. I don't know if it's because he can't afford it or if he is just sick out of losing $100,000 out of his supposedly $4m bankroll, but it seemed to me like he was playing bigger than he can afford and all his tournament winnings have gone down the drain.

You have players like Antonio Esfandiari who's always been a super action player in his heyday after running good at tournaments. He used to three bet light almost every hand and it seemed to be working wonders for him. Now, it seems like the guy is paling extra snug and he proved that he was under immense pressure when Hellmuth was figuring out insurance in a hand. "I'm stuck $100k!!" he shouted. He looked like a wreck with his clothes, his hair and his entire demeanor.

Speaking of High Stakes Poker, and other televised cash games; I have rarely seen Daniel Negreanu win. The guy is a shark at tournaments. His results speak from themselves. But I saw him lose close to $500k+ in the Big Game, $1m+ on HSP, $500k+ on Poker After Dark etc. Daniel is my favorite tournament player but again he’s a guy that seems to be a cash game ‘fish’ losing a bit too much than he can handle.

A few months ago, I watched an episode of Premier League Poker where Tony G flipped up his hand a bit too early against Andy Black after some confusion. His demeanor was that of a hobo and his interview after being eliminated was that of a man who just lost his house. It seems like Tony G got his life back on track with his successful business ventures, which was evident in his good mood and huge stack on the most recent episode of the Big Game.

Online Sharks looking like Goldfish

There are also the numerous online rants we oh so love to read. Mike Matusow (who never shies away from the truth of his money struggles), Stevebets, Illari Sahamias, Isildur among others who seem to run bad in every session they play. I don't know if these guys are broke, but it seems like they are. I have no idea where they get these excessive amounts of money to play these games. Especially someone like Illari. The guy can win $1m and lose it the next day no problem. Is someone backing him? Is someone backing them all? If they are, doesn't that mean they are all broke? I’m sure if these players had the ‘huge’ bankroll we are led to believe they have, they wouldn’t be backed.

We also have a player who seemed like the most efficient player in the world who seems to have lost over $5m this year alone: Cole ‘cts’ South. Another online player who I thought would never go broke. I don’t care about how much money this guy has made on cardrunners/poker but $5m is too much money, even for a billionaire. So it really seems like he’s another online poker pro that has gone down the drain.

You also have online tournament specialists that seem to be broke. A guy like Sorel Mizzi seems to have really bad bankroll management as he's almost always in the top ten ‘player of the year’ awards but he always seems broke. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's always having online scandals. Regardless of whether he's guilty or not, he's been involved with backers and cheaters which effectively means he's broke. Another tournament specialist that isn't on the poker radar anymore is Ivan Demidov. The guy ran like god in 2008, finishing runner up and third place in the WSOP ME and WSOPE respectively. Apparently he was backed for the first one and had to give a chunk of his $5m+ winnings away and probably ended up losing it all, which is why he is never to be seen.

All this and I forgot to mention players that we all know have gone broke. Sam Farha (not a coincidence that he didn't play High Stakes Poker after being invited, using other excuses such as not wanting people to see how he plays), Brian Townsend (said to have lost millions in Bobby's Room at one point and reportedly lost $3m last year online), Mike Matusow, Gus Hansen, Jamie Gold, the Mizrachi's, Jean Robert Bellande (who I actually respect for telling it like it is, as seen on a recent episode of the Scoop and Twitter),

Financially Secure Pros are Businessmen

The only players that seem financially secure to me are just a handful. Players like Erik Seidel (who I sat next to on the plane from Vegas to London after the World Series), Phil Hellmuth, Barry Greenstein, and Chris Ferguson etc. These players seem to know how to handle their money and their businesses. Of course, you are wondering why I didn't mention Phil Ivey. Well, Ivey as we all know is the greatest player in the world, hands down. He seems to make the money of every tournament he plays, he seems to only lose when he gets unlucky, and he seems to have a bottomless pit of cash. During my trip to Vegas, I heard he lost $13m playing craps in the cage, whatever the cage is. And then I heard about him selling his multi million house. Then I heard about his divorce from his high school sweetheart and wife. Isn't it just obvious that Ivey is losing too much money outside of poker? I mean, $13m is a lot of money even for a billionaire. I'm not saying he's broke, because that's something we won't ever know, but all signs point to him being down a ton.

There were also a lot of pros begging me for money around the Bellagio poker room. Their names I can't release just because they were good people who just seemed to have monetary problems. You shouldn't feel ashamed to lose money playing poker, I've lost a lot much money, mainly because I played big stakes when I first learned the game which was a huge mistake (only game around where I live was $5-$10 which was an expensive lesson). Even now, I can win thousands of dollars and just blow it off in a single cash game. For example, I played a tournament in the local Casino here and won $4k and in exactly two back-to-back bad beats in the cash game i lost all I won. It's normal. And almost everybody I know seems to be a losing player. If they win at poker, they lose it on other casino games, sports betting etc.

I don’t think it’s something to be ashamed of; it’s common knowledge that over 90% of poker players are broke. Even these players that try to ‘flex’ their muscles on forums such as this are broke regardless of their results on tracking websites. Doesn’t matter how good you are, cards are largely based on luck at the end of the day.

Poker players are essentially gamblers and degenerates, which means that in the end, they will lose almost all they have.

P.S

I’m expecting childish comments like “OP is the real fish here”, with all these people posting trying to claim that they are winning players. In the ‘end’ there is no such thing as a ‘winning’ player. In the end players will lose all they have or close to all they have if they don’t have some other project to fall back on.

Originally Posted by CursedbyaGypsy

Don't you get the feeling that almost all poker players are getting broke?

Financially Secure Pros are Businessmen

Originally Posted by Riina

Wether you are wrong or right in your views, i honestly would not know, but i respect the fact you do try to make your own thoughtful observations and take the time to share them with us in such an extensive way. I enjoyed the read a lot OP!

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

Everyone should remember that this problem need not be caused by a good player encountering even better ones. Its almost as bad if he is merely encountering fewer suckers. If your hourly rate is only one third of what it used to be, you not only make a lot less money you are also much more likely to go broke if you don't drop down in stakes. If it was originally three percent that jumps up to about thirty percent.

Originally Posted by CursedbyaGypsy

Don't you get the feeling that almost all poker players are getting broke?

Well, I've noticed recently that almost all poker players enter a bad run and eventually go broke. The problem is, we never know about it and are programmed to believe that these players are Gods and that the poker lifestyle is heaven.

I've been playing poker for only about 4 years now and my dream was to visit Vegas and participate in the World Series of Poker Main Event. That dream came true when I won a seat on Pokerstars playing an $11 re-buy tournament. I was extremely excited knowing that I would be staying the Bellagio and that I will get to see all my heroes on TV.

Since I'm a huge tournament fan, I was more excited to see the likes of Erik Seidel, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Hellmuth etc as opposed to Tom Dwan, Patrick Antonius and Doyle Brunson.

Anyway, when I entered the poker room at Bellagio, I saw almost everyone and actually played with some. I was surprised to see that almost all these poker players we see on TV look like wrecks, bums and just plain degenerates.

I remember seeing Gus Hansen walking around the poker room with his cheap flip flops every couple of days saying hi to people. He looked like one of these people that really wanted to play but couldn't. He looked like a person wishing for someone to lend him $500k to sit down.

I saw Chino Rheem settling a debt with some other Asian guy outside the poker room in quite angry fashion.

I saw Johnny Chan looking so tilted that going near him would be a huge mistake. I saw him lose a 'measly' $3,000 in one pot against Jeff Lisandro playing on a mixed game table and just looking like he wanted to kill somebody. It honestly seemed like it was so much money for him. I also met a guy who played in the NBC Heads Up tournament (He was some kind of qualifier) telling me that Chan actually asked him for money.

I sat down with Alan Smurfit who was a Bracelet winner from Ireland a few years back during the $1,000 satellite to the WPT Bellagio event (He won close to $500,000 dollars during his bracelet run). It eventually came down to Alan, some Armenian businessman and myself. That Irish guy had his bracelet in front of him the whole sit and go and it seemed so intimidating until when we were three handed and I was chip leader and he actually BEGGED ME to make a deal. "You understand that making a deal is better for you right? I mean you could lose all you have in two hands! Trust me, you need to make the deal, you seem new to this." He went on and on about it until I pushed him all in with Ac3c and he called with Ad3d. I flopped the nut flush. He got up without even saying good game and left. I eventually won the satellite but took the money instead and played the $25-$50 PLO cash game they had in the poker room, which leads me to my next encounter…

I've been dying to play PLO at Bellagio because the only poker room that had PLO at the time was Venetian. I found myself up $12,000 for the trip until now so I decided to sit down. I had Tommy Vedes to my right and Nenad Medic to my left. I also had Billy Gazes sitting in front of me, and some crazy Spanish Full Tilt Poker pro (can't recall his name).

I put in $3,000 only. Left up $12,500. All my double ups came from Tommy Vedes. This guy just won the Festa al Lago event at the WPT for more than $1,1 million. The guy was playing $25-$50 like a homeless person was playing $1k-$2k. After every hand he complained about how unlucky he was, regardless how much he lost in the hand. "This is sick! I'm running like ****! ****!" After every hand he'd lose he'd get up and smoke a cigarette outside looking like it was the end of the world. He had restless leg syndrome like I've never seen before in my entire life. I thought I was bad until I met him. Having said that, he's an amazingly nice guy but the dealer told me that he loses tons on sports betting. In fact when we were out for a cigarette he was trying to place a $20,000 on a baseball game.

At the WSOP, I was excited. I was hoping to sit down and find myself on a table full of pros. I didn't care about making it deep at this point. I just wanted to play live poker with the best. I sat down and to my disgust I found a table full of amateurs, until I focused to my right. On my right, there was this guy, complaining about every hand the dealer dealt him. Literally every hand. Then I looked closer to his shirt and found "Team Pokerstars" on it. The guy looked quite familiar so I asked him who he was and he told me he was Tony Hachem. During the hand, Tony is the most obnoxious person to sit with. It seemed like that guy was down $2m dollars. But quite surprisingly, he was the coolest and nicest guy I've met in Vegas, but quite a douche to the dealers (he never said anything directly to the dealer but he would imply that they are retarded). Again seems like he’s losing a lot of money regardless of his brothers wealth or his tournament winnings.



If you watch some of the new poker show episodes, you'd see some amazing moments you'd never think you'd see. You'd see players that you think are invincible looking weak. You'd see players that you think had a bottomless well of money seem broke. I first noticed this watching the new Poker After Dark cash game. After a hand, Eli Elezra made a comment to Dwan with Dwan responding in a manner, which proves he’s broke. Hellmuth was right to say that will blow his money off sooner or later. I will try to find the exact link to post the comment, as I don’t remember exactly what/where it was.

Dwan seems like he's 'broke' in relation to the stakes he plays. This was probably after Isildur cleaned him out online. I'm sure he can come right back from it, but again it was extremely weird watching him look vulnerable. This was uncanny in comparison to his first season on High Stakes Poker when he had that war with Barry Greenstein. When Barry hit the 9 on the turn to crack Tom's aces, the Internet sensation did not move an inch…. just had a sip of his coffee and muttered "Nice Hand." You can tell that at the time, Dwan had money to burn, probably because of Guy Laliberte donking off millions of dollars on Full Tilt Poker.

On Pokerstars the Big Game, I heard Doyle Brunson say something that I wouldn't ever think he'd say after losing a $200k pot against Barry Greenstein: "This is the story of my life." In fact, while at the Bellagio, I asked more than 5 dealers about the big game in Bobby's Room and who is the biggest winner and loser, and they all confirmed to me that Brunson was the player that was losing excessively and had financial problems.

Also on Pokerstars the Big Game and actually on High Stakes Poker prior to that, I got the feeling that Jason Mercier was playing with too much money that he can handle. He looked uncomfortable in every situation. When cards were turned over after an all in situation, he looked like he was about to cry with fear. This was extremely evident with the hand when he flopped the nuts with 5-6 off against Tony G's set of 3's. When Tony G elected to run the whole thing once, Jason Mercier looked like he wanted to just take the money back and forget about the hand. I don't know if it's because he can't afford it or if he is just sick out of losing $100,000 out of his supposedly $4m bankroll, but it seemed to me like he was playing bigger than he can afford and all his tournament winnings have gone down the drain.

You have players like Antonio Esfandiari who's always been a super action player in his heyday after running good at tournaments. He used to three bet light almost every hand and it seemed to be working wonders for him. Now, it seems like the guy is paling extra snug and he proved that he was under immense pressure when Hellmuth was figuring out insurance in a hand. "I'm stuck $100k!!" he shouted. He looked like a wreck with his clothes, his hair and his entire demeanor.

Speaking of High Stakes Poker, and other televised cash games; I have rarely seen Daniel Negreanu win. The guy is a shark at tournaments. His results speak from themselves. But I saw him lose close to $500k+ in the Big Game, $1m+ on HSP, $500k+ on Poker After Dark etc. Daniel is my favorite tournament player but again he’s a guy that seems to be a cash game ‘fish’ losing a bit too much than he can handle.

A few months ago, I watched an episode of Premier League Poker where Tony G flipped up his hand a bit too early against Andy Black after some confusion. His demeanor was that of a hobo and his interview after being eliminated was that of a man who just lost his house. It seems like Tony G got his life back on track with his successful business ventures, which was evident in his good mood and huge stack on the most recent episode of the Big Game.

Online Sharks looking like Goldfish

There are also the numerous online rants we oh so love to read. Mike Matusow (who never shies away from the truth of his money struggles), Stevebets, Illari Sahamias, Isildur among others who seem to run bad in every session they play. I don't know if these guys are broke, but it seems like they are. I have no idea where they get these excessive amounts of money to play these games. Especially someone like Illari. The guy can win $1m and lose it the next day no problem. Is someone backing him? Is someone backing them all? If they are, doesn't that mean they are all broke? I’m sure if these players had the ‘huge’ bankroll we are led to believe they have, they wouldn’t be backed.

We also have a player who seemed like the most efficient player in the world who seems to have lost over $5m this year alone: Cole ‘cts’ South. Another online player who I thought would never go broke. I don’t care about how much money this guy has made on cardrunners/poker but $5m is too much money, even for a billionaire. So it really seems like he’s another online poker pro that has gone down the drain.

You also have online tournament specialists that seem to be broke. A guy like Sorel Mizzi seems to have really bad bankroll management as he's almost always in the top ten ‘player of the year’ awards but he always seems broke. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's always having online scandals. Regardless of whether he's guilty or not, he's been involved with backers and cheaters which effectively means he's broke. Another tournament specialist that isn't on the poker radar anymore is Ivan Demidov. The guy ran like god in 2008, finishing runner up and third place in the WSOP ME and WSOPE respectively. Apparently he was backed for the first one and had to give a chunk of his $5m+ winnings away and probably ended up losing it all, which is why he is never to be seen.

All this and I forgot to mention players that we all know have gone broke. Sam Farha (not a coincidence that he didn't play High Stakes Poker after being invited, using other excuses such as not wanting people to see how he plays), Brian Townsend (said to have lost millions in Bobby's Room at one point and reportedly lost $3m last year online), Mike Matusow, Gus Hansen, Jamie Gold, the Mizrachi's, Jean Robert Bellande (who I actually respect for telling it like it is, as seen on a recent episode of the Scoop and Twitter),

Financially Secure Pros are Businessmen

The only players that seem financially secure to me are just a handful. Players like Erik Seidel (who I sat next to on the plane from Vegas to London after the World Series), Phil Hellmuth, Barry Greenstein, and Chris Ferguson etc. These players seem to know how to handle their money and their businesses. Of course, you are wondering why I didn't mention Phil Ivey. Well, Ivey as we all know is the greatest player in the world, hands down. He seems to make the money of every tournament he plays, he seems to only lose when he gets unlucky, and he seems to have a bottomless pit of cash. During my trip to Vegas, I heard he lost $13m playing craps in the cage, whatever the cage is. And then I heard about him selling his multi million house. Then I heard about his divorce from his high school sweetheart and wife. Isn't it just obvious that Ivey is losing too much money outside of poker? I mean, $13m is a lot of money even for a billionaire. I'm not saying he's broke, because that's something we won't ever know, but all signs point to him being down a ton.

There were also a lot of pros begging me for money around the Bellagio poker room. Their names I can't release just because they were good people who just seemed to have monetary problems. You shouldn't feel ashamed to lose money playing poker, I've lost a lot much money, mainly because I played big stakes when I first learned the game which was a huge mistake (only game around where I live was $5-$10 which was an expensive lesson). Even now, I can win thousands of dollars and just blow it off in a single cash game. For example, I played a tournament in the local Casino here and won $4k and in exactly two back-to-back bad beats in the cash game i lost all I won. It's normal. And almost everybody I know seems to be a losing player. If they win at poker, they lose it on other casino games, sports betting etc.

I don’t think it’s something to be ashamed of; it’s common knowledge that over 90% of poker players are broke. Even these players that try to ‘flex’ their muscles on forums such as this are broke regardless of their results on tracking websites. Doesn’t matter how good you are, cards are largely based on luck at the end of the day.

Poker players are essentially gamblers and degenerates, which means that in the end, they will lose almost all they have.

P.S

I’m expecting childish comments like “OP is the real fish here”, with all these people posting trying to claim that they are winning players. In the ‘end’ there is no such thing as a ‘winning’ player. In the end players will lose all they have or close to all they have if they don’t have some other project to fall back on.

Originally Posted by bigballa_3214

Moral to this thread.

Practice bad Bankroll Management and you will go broke. No question.