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Old 10-14-2012, 01:19 PM   #271
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

What I find really strange is that people are preoccupied with pointless stuff yet in part 5 DF highlighted one of the most import issues that Howard did not answer.

The way FTP/HL treated ROW players in April 2011 to closing on June 29th 2011.

He brushed off the Ponzi Scheme allegations with a stupid analogy but its clear they basically operated as one when they offered promotions and incentives to ROW players to deposit knowing full well they did not have the money to cover the payouts.

In May 2011 they set on a deliberate strategy to slow pay certain regions knowing they had little money left.

How can anyone defend this? Its purely criminal.

HL knew about the financial state of the company at the time and without doubt orchestrated this robbing peter to pay paul type ponzi scheme.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #272
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

From DN on twitter: @RealKidPoker: The more research you do, the more obvious it becomes that justice will only be served if Howard Lederer goes to prison.

@JBSportsTrading: @RealKidPoker what about your boyfriend Erik going to prison for stealing 2 million?

@RealKidPoker: @JBSportsTrading I'd suggest rehab as a more suitable place.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:16 PM   #273
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by yesright View Post
What I find really strange is that people are preoccupied with pointless stuff yet in part 5 DF highlighted one of the most import issues that Howard did not answer.

The way FTP/HL treated ROW players in April 2011 to closing on June 29th 2011.

He brushed off the Ponzi Scheme allegations with a stupid analogy but its clear they basically operated as one when they offered promotions and incentives to ROW players to deposit knowing full well they did not have the money to cover the payouts.

In May 2011 they set on a deliberate strategy to slow pay certain regions knowing they had little money left.

How can anyone defend this? Its purely criminal.

HL knew about the financial state of the company at the time and without doubt orchestrated this robbing peter to pay paul type ponzi scheme.
Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.

Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.

So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:47 PM   #274
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.
This has zero to do with his actions. Im not expecting him to get prosecuted to be honest but its clearly the case he was a total ****ing scumbag, not the victim he portrays himself.

As for being made "whole" I think you are jumping the gun a little.

I was one of the first in the old FTP thread to be really wary of that term when it related to the GBT bid. (and I was proven 100% correct)

I would be totally stunned if US players received 100% of what they are owed. (100% balances plus value of FTP points and various bonuses earned)

"Made whole" in my book is being paid everything that is owed not some %

Quote:
Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.

So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.
A counter argument would be is that their actions post April 21st made the repayment of US players less likely, as they owed US players, they were still technically doing business with those players and defrauded them.

Frankly I don't for one moment believe Howard when he said he knows nothing
about the bank transaction fraud. I also don't believe him when he says he had no idea how much money the company had on hand or if they were underwater.
HL from all accounts is a detail nit. Yet he continues to issue huge distributions without knowing the exact financial state of the company.

Does anyone buy that BS?
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:57 PM   #275
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.

Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.

So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.

The DOJ must be now have access at to all the records of Full Tilt. Included in these records are the internal financial statements.

As a managing member of the LLC, HL should have been provided financial statements at least quarterly if not more often. If Bitar and the CFO were falsifying the financial reports provided to HL, HL may be off the hook, but Bitar and the CFO are headed to jail.

We shall see what happens in court.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:51 PM   #276
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

tamiller866,

It is a cool to finally be able to debate you lo these many months of lurking. A good measure of my understanding of this case comes from you.

But f it, this is the internet, and I am sure someone is wrong here.

To wit-

First regarding your critiques DF: Meh. OK, we have known you don't like her for awhile now. Your criticism of her started with the fact that she clearly knew stuff she was not saying. Now the critique is that she is just sort of pouring out verbal diarrhea? I am not a fan of big block quotes, but so what?

Sure some of this stuff is known, but it should be concisely summed up at the end. If not, who cares? For example, more name-pros need to speak out. The point is to move info from those who followed closely to the broader community. She has done that well and she has done it for free. Good on her. Yea its a new model of journalism, but why not try it here. Also isn't a lot of part 4 new stuff? (the settlement talks, PI at the meeting etc.) I thought so (could be wrong.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.
This is an excellent summary of the legal defense. Now, do you see any problems? I do. I hope you do too because I know you are not simply acting as a defense attorney.

1.) Players will not be made whole. The US govt is not going to pay interest, and I doubt they pay points or limbo funds. (The rfp the doj has out requires players to pay admin fees.) Isn't "made whole," a legal remedy when what we have is victim compensation? (Yea I know I am not a lawyer, hence the nic.)

2.) Clearly this is the guts of the defense. This defense was being prepared when he left management. (Something like- Hey guys I am leaving management, can you just shoot me something in writing that says we have player funds in cash, it just occurred to me.)

The problem for him is that even if he can dance out of the deposit backlog he has to confront the shortfall behind the backlog.

The internal accounting reported a dire warning in Jan. He is a board member, and as such it does not work to claim ignorance of the seizures. As others have pointed out the balance sheets simply won't balance if you have a huge non-recoverable hit to assets from seizures and no concomitant increase in revenue. The site itself showed the player activity. This defense relies on magic money coming from somewhere.

Board members are legally obligated to not pay fake profits especially when there is no plausible source of said profits and the company operated at an actual loss (2010.) I think the paper trial will out on this score. I suspect with the additional Travel Act related claims this may be where the DOJ is headed.

I think you are right that he will avoid criminal prosecution though. So what? That is very different than someone as knowledgeable as you joining a foolish chorus saying it can't be proven he lied and stole.

Related:

Anyone seen the q4 2010 and q1 2011 tiltware financials? What did Gil's team prepare for Ray?
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:08 PM   #277
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by yesright View Post

In May 2011 they set on a deliberate strategy to slow pay certain regions knowing they had little money left.
It's worse, they were slow paying US before black Friday. In Jan of '11 the accounting department told the company they were running out of money. I don't like the p**** word as it starts useless debates... But-

Whatever type of company it was after April 15th it was also that company before April 15th. From q4 '10, probably sooner, they did not have cash on hand to pay ROW. Anything that causes a run on ftp could be deadly to the whole world. It had gone beyond US. Howard even concedes this is why Ray had to keep making disbursements to the owners (2+2 interview.)

If the members knew then a wave of withdrawals then game over

The reason you are frustrated people are not pulsed is because, sadly, it is not news.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:58 PM   #278
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSwag View Post
From DN on twitter: @RealKidPoker: The more research you do, the more obvious it becomes that justice will only be served if Howard Lederer goes to prison.

@JBSportsTrading: @RealKidPoker what about your boyfriend Erik going to prison for stealing 2 million?

@RealKidPoker: @JBSportsTrading I'd suggest rehab as a more suitable place.
did this really happen

is htis real life
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:03 PM   #279
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Daniel ranting and raving about Howard and Annie so much, and going so easy on his friends, takes credibility away from others who correctly call out scumminess of Howard and Annie, imo
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:39 PM   #280
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th an 1 View Post
Daniel ranting and raving about Howard and Annie so much, and going so easy on his friends, takes credibility away from others who correctly call out scumminess of Howard and Annie, imo
To be fair, Howard and Annie appear to be blatant scumbags whereas his friend Eric obviously has a huge problem. I am not saying Eric is not a scumbag, but it's different when you know the person is just a moron.
Also, Daniel obviously knows all three people personally. It appears from what people say is that Eric is a good likeable guy who's gambling problem has been the issue, whereas HL and AD don't really seem like good people by most accounts.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:03 PM   #281
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_guy View Post
tamiller866,

It is a cool to finally be able to debate you lo these many months of lurking. A good measure of my understanding of this case comes from you.

But f it, this is the internet, and I am sure someone is wrong here.

To wit-

First regarding your critiques DF: Meh. OK, we have known you don't like her for awhile now. Your criticism of her started with the fact that she clearly knew stuff she was not saying. Now the critique is that she is just sort of pouring out verbal diarrhea? I am not a fan of big block quotes, but so what?

Sure some of this stuff is known, but it should be concisely summed up at the end. If not, who cares? For example, more name-pros need to speak out. The point is to move info from those who followed closely to the broader community. She has done that well and she has done it for free. Good on her. Yea its a new model of journalism, but why not try it here. Also isn't a lot of part 4 new stuff? (the settlement talks, PI at the meeting etc.) I thought so (could be wrong.)







This is an excellent summary of the legal defense. Now, do you see any problems? I do. I hope you do too because I know you are not simply acting as a defense attorney.

1.) Players will not be made whole. The US govt is not going to pay interest, and I doubt they pay points or limbo funds. (The rfp the doj has out requires players to pay admin fees.) Isn't "made whole," a legal remedy when what we have is victim compensation? (Yea I know I am not a lawyer, hence the nic.)

2.) Clearly this is the guts of the defense. This defense was being prepared when he left management. (Something like- Hey guys I am leaving management, can you just shoot me something in writing that says we have player funds in cash, it just occurred to me.)

The problem for him is that even if he can dance out of the deposit backlog he has to confront the shortfall behind the backlog.

The internal accounting reported a dire warning in Jan. He is a board member, and as such it does not work to claim ignorance of the seizures. As others have pointed out the balance sheets simply won't balance if you have a huge non-recoverable hit to assets from seizures and no concomitant increase in revenue. The site itself showed the player activity. This defense relies on magic money coming from somewhere.

Board members are legally obligated to not pay fake profits especially when there is no plausible source of said profits and the company operated at an actual loss (2010.) I think the paper trial will out on this score. I suspect with the additional Travel Act related claims this may be where the DOJ is headed.

I think you are right that he will avoid criminal prosecution though. So what? That is very different than someone as knowledgeable as you joining a foolish chorus saying it can't be proven he lied and stole.

Related:

Anyone seen the q4 2010 and q1 2011 tiltware financials? What did Gil's team prepare for Ray?

I don't dislike anonymous folks for things (or lack of things) they post on an internet forum, that's silly, but having set the expectation level so high for a one week series that would reveal the 'truth', taking two weeks to reveal nothing but the obvious would be a letdown regardless of the author.

Whether US players get 100% or even 200% they will be victims, since the money is coming from the government 'victims' remission fund, not FTP or even PokerStars, but U.S. victims won't equate to Howard Lederer liability if the DOJ is unable to poke a hole in his 'I didn't know' before April 21 argument.

The Travel Act charge has nothing to do with whether the profits were 'fake', proceeds from an unlawful interstate business (prostitution, gambling, drugs) are illegitimate under the statute regardless of the financial stability of the company.

Under the Travel Act 'I didn't know' the money was dirty isn't a defense, neither intent nor the actual completion of a crime is required, he is going to owe the government $40M+ unless he takes a plead.

So what? There are still prominent people like Daniel Negreanu earlier today suggesting that Howard should go to prison for allowing deposits after BF, people should know that under Morrison what they allowed after BF is not on the US government's plate.

In countries where they were operating legally, the regulators (AGCC, ARGEL, KGC) would likely be liable if Howard's story is true that they were transparent with the regulators once he finally 'knew' (Tony G said he had evidence that Alderney knew the books were cooked as early as Dec 2010),
but again, since ROW players are getting paid next month, only non-player creditors have legitimate claims and those would be civil, not criminal.

Yes we all know he's lying, we didn't need DF to leave us on the edge of our seats all month to figure that out, but is he lying because he was the evil professor behind an elaborate ponzi scheme, or is he lying because he thinks that's his only shot at keeping his assets?

He was lazy, arrogant, and surprisingly stupid (allowing a deposit backlog, really Howard?) but none of those are legal defenses for the 'ponzi scheme' allegations, so of course he is going to lie and of course the lie is going to be 'I didn't know'.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:29 AM   #282
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

tamiller-

Regarding the travel act, OK I'll cede. My point was that facilitating ill-gotten corporate gain distribution is an illegal activity. I think I am out of depth on this aspect though. Thank you for increasing my understanding.

Regarding DF, I give up. I am now supposed to care that she said one week and has taken longer? All this attention on her performance is just so misplaced. How is it relevant, and why do you care?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
Yes we all know he's lying, we didn't need DF to leave us on the edge of our seats all month to figure that out, but is he lying because he was the evil professor behind an elaborate ponzi scheme, or is he lying because he thinks that's his only shot at keeping his assets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post

He was lazy, arrogant, and surprisingly stupid (allowing a deposit backlog, really Howard?) but none of those are legal defenses for the 'ponzi scheme' allegations, so of course he is going to lie and of course the lie is going to be 'I didn't know'.
This is the aspect of your formulation that bothers me. You seem to be suggesting he would be telling the truth were it not for those pesky feds and their pesky ponzi scheme allegation.

I would suggest he created a company to avoid legal prosecution, fought the owners who tried to bring in proper management and then set in place a structure that ensured his Patsy would loot player funds on his and his friends behalf. His motivation is not to get caught for mendacious and venal crimes. The lies are not driven by legal considerations per sea. They are driven by the fact that the truth is very, very ugly and he wants to hide it so he can play poker and act like it never happened. I don't think he should be allowed to do this. Do you?
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:54 AM   #283
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

"To recap, by the fall of 2010:

Lederer and others in charge at Full Tilt Poker are keenly aware that the U.S.A.O., SDNY may have the company under investigation.
Quite possibly Daniel Tzvetkoff might be cooperating in any such investigation
The company has taken hits from multiple seizures and thefts in the previous 2 years
The U.S. e-check portion of their business is not healthy due to lack of payment processors. The “backlog” has already begun."

The fact that they knew they were under investigation puts a lot of things in context. There was a real rake grab at this time, with the introduction of rush (although I think this may have been earlier) and in particular multi-entry tournaments (this was definitely late 2010). There seems to have been a determined strategy to get as much money out of the US market while they still could.
But I don't understand that if they knew of the backlog at this time, that they would not realise how stupid this was, especially given the above meaning that there will probably be a greater rate of US deposits, and the backlog would increase drastically (as it did). Either they didn't know there was an e-check issue, or they did and thought they could fix it, or some flawed thinking which made them somehow think they were going to get more money out of this?
Did they perhaps realise there was no way they could turn this backlog around without giving up some of their own already pocketed distributions, and they were using the above to milk the current players as dry as possible and maximise future distributions before the company went under?
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:08 AM   #284
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

i was really looking forward to interview. i think df would have turned the professor into the confessor
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:27 AM   #285
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

I like DF, I don't care about her real name, and I think her research is solid. What I think we have yet to see is a real smoking gun. What we have seen so far is inferences. The interview, had it happened, would have looked like this:

DF: Don't you think a reasonable board member should have....
HL: I didn't know
DF: Shouldn't you have know....
HL: I didn't know
DF: By April 20th, weren't you aware
DL: I didn't know

Wouldn't it be nice to have an email from Howard saying something that directly contradicts his statements in the either interview? Otherwise, all we have are people viewing the FT actions in hindsight, which, as we know from country music, is 20/20.
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