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Old 10-11-2012, 12:32 PM   #226
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by MicroRoller View Post
Just like it's ok if someone steals your car but brings it back a month later with a full tank of gas?

Just because the money will eventually be returned doesn't make what happened any less wrong or less illegal.
Except he's not even giving the car back. Someone else is replacing the car and he's keeping what he took.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #227
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Except he's not even giving the car back. Someone else is replacing the car and he's keeping what he took.
Much better anology, thanks
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:53 PM   #228
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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I think this is the key point. Howard seems to feel that he and the other owners have paid for their errors by losing the company and their cash cow, and now that PS got the company and will be paying people back, everything should be forgiven and forgotten.

In some twisted way he's right, but as someone posted earlier, at the very least he should wait till everyone has their money again. And of course, there's no way to compensate everyone for the damage that has been done to the game and the players.

The only aspect I would add is that given the enormous unsecured loans and murky payments in play here it is a tricky spot. Why roil anything when it does seem likely most people will get their money. Oh wait, that is also what you said as well. I think this is all very smart. Right.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:54 PM   #229
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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I believe that most of the investors, Jesus and Howard were genuinely inept and weren't trying to actually rip people off or put people's money in jeopardy. Ray Bitar is to blame he was the head and he knew exactly what was going and didn't stop it.
I disagree. I think they all accepted from nearly the beginning to use player funds to finance the growth of the business. After that Chris and Howard pretended to play dumb but they always knew things were not legitimate and would not hold up to real scrutiny. They played intereference for Bitar with the other owners. This is why no outside audits were ever seriously considered and this is why Bitar was not Insta fired when lederer and ferguson pretended to just find out about what was going on.

Bitar did most of the dirty work but this company was established from the beginning to be shady and all the board members knew what was going on.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:59 PM   #230
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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On a separate note, most interesting part of part-4 was:



Man: is it insane to ask about the plausibility of Ivey being broke at some point in the not-too-distant-future? Replace "Phil Ivey" with "Erick Lindgren" in the above passage, and people would be slack-jawed at the depths of degeneracy (and the brazenness of turning to FTP for a loan of that size.) Phil is, by most accounts, one of the most skilled players ever. He is also, by just as many accounts, a complete action junky / pit degen. With the FTP money tree no longer at his disposal...let's just say that going busto is in his range. I'm sure the preceding idea will be ridiculed by many; but begging for a $10M - $20M loan because a casino marker is due immediately...that's not indicative of sound money management.
The problem with casino markers unlike any other form of credit is they are treated as writing a bad check. Being unable to pay would have gotten Ivey arrested and given the amount probably prison time.

Not paying a casino marker is the only form of credit where non repayment is a crime and felony.

It is crazy to see Ivey so busto but anyone who bets any significant money on craps like Ivey did is a full blown degen.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:54 PM   #231
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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never understood the drama here. companies go busto every day owing creditors, vendors, customers, and ivestors money; while keeping profits they have paid themselves. This whole ordeal happens every day. Move on.
bolded for emphasis
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:32 AM   #232
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

they knew after black friday they was no money in accounts to cover players funds, to say your funds are safe and secure , and its business as usual for rest of world. running promos and getting deposits from rest of world was a crime . outright theft with no way of repaying unless they sold company, all the board knew this howard knew this. they agreed on keeping it alive taking deposits, they agreed on not returning 1 penny in wrongful disbursments. hes seems very proud of the fact , he didnt return 1 cent to players, hes not sorry he took the money .
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:49 AM   #233
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

i think its ob now only reason why he did interviews is hes tryng to get back to live playing , not because of the ftp players wanting answers. hes has showed he never cared abou ftp players only himself. good reads df ty
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #234
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by bcski1 View Post
never understood the drama here. companies go busto every day owing creditors, vendors, customers, and ivestors money; while keeping profits they have paid themselves. This whole ordeal happens every day. Move on.
This is NVG but I don't get this comment at all, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but many here are directly involved and have no intention of "moving on"
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:33 PM   #235
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Just A Guy,

I agree with you on PI. Those blaming him for the fall of FTP have been easily tricked and mislead by the lederer Et al misdirection campaign. I do think Ivey is a degen with a big gambling problem who is good at poker.

It would be good for poker and the notion it is not gambling if so many top players were not massive gambling degens. Phil has his own issues but I have a hard time placing any blame on him for FTP. In fact he was trying to get away from that mess. In hindsight people should have took his lawsuit as a sign to cash out ASAP not as a misguided tool to blame him for what others did at FTP.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:54 PM   #236
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by bcski1 View Post
never understood the drama here. companies go busto every day owing creditors, vendors, customers, and ivestors money; while keeping profits they have paid themselves. This whole ordeal happens every day. Move on.
You're right that companies go busto every day. You're wrong that companies that are holding $300m of their customers money go busto every day.

Please list some other examples of companies who stole/spent $300m of their customers money and people just shrugged their shoulders and moved on. In any other cases of this (Enron, Madoff Securities etc..) people were held accountable and their was much 'drama'.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:59 PM   #237
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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people were held accountable and their was much 'drama'.
and jail time.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:35 PM   #238
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Just A Guy,

I agree with you on PI. Those blaming him for the fall of FTP have been easily tricked and mislead by the lederer Et al misdirection campaign. I do think Ivey is a degen with a big gambling problem who is good at poker.

It would be good for poker and the notion it is not gambling if so many top players were not massive gambling degens. Phil has his own issues but I have a hard time placing any blame on him for FTP. In fact he was trying to get away from that mess. In hindsight people should have took his lawsuit as a sign to cash out ASAP not as a misguided tool to blame him for what others did at FTP.

markksman,

Strong post. The notion that a frivolous lawsuit could bring down a billion $ company that had ~150m in payables due immediately (US), another ~160m in long term liabilities (RTO) and ~60m in cash is absurd.

I also have to call out the PPA a bit on the lawsuit aspect. Some pretty harsh stuff was said about PI right away. Seems probable the ftp relationship influenced the response.

OTOH Howard says PI was looking to distance from ftp right around the time the divorce is going on. Phil then hires his own lawyer to represent his wife in a settlement to give the ex-wife all the ftp distributions, forever. And nothing else. Oh yea and then they gave the judge who signs off on the divorce a big campaign donation. lol.

So he screwed his ex-wife, why should we care? Well it is not great form to then try to stop representing the company a year before bf, ask for ~10m 8 days before BF and then sue the company. Not great for all the ftp players that clicked on his face both before and after BF. It actually would have been shadier if the company was solvent. I think if he provided an explanation and a chunk of that Crawfords score to help resolve things then all is fine. He is mother-fn Phil Ivey.

I do think it is kind of funny he appears to owe CF about $5m as well.

DF if the nuts but I wish she would allow herself to elaborate on things she has already reported. With no follow-up, it leaves her alone to connect all the dots. NVG does crowd-sourced investigations very, very, well. Maybe she has everything so no-one is needed, I don't know. (Wait, did I just complain that someone doing incredible work practically for free won't talk here...jeez.)

Noah, are you embargoed as well? If no, then do you have a sense of whether whether PI's lawsuit was motivated by the divorce settlement? The desire to take down a bankrupt company that was still taking ROW? Simply a degen? You broke his loan issue so I suspect you know more here as well.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:08 AM   #239
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Part V is out:

http://diamondflushpoker.com/
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:18 AM   #240
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

^^^
ty
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