de Wolfe vs random EuroDonk @ EPT Barcelona - Page 33 - Poker News

Fetzenplayer · 09-23-2009, 12:39 AM

I've asked many friends (including pokerstars and full tilt pros) about my etiquette and none of them thought it was bad etiquette. I also sent a pm to Barry Greenstein asking about his opinion. He replied this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by barryg1

Tobias,

This wasn't a very unique situation (except for Roland showing one card) like the online guys think. I didn't want to post and have people who were amazed think I was trying to get my own compliments. I have made thin calls hundreds of times and waited to see the winning hand. If the guy wants to muck his hand, then I have no problem winning with my Ace or King high. I think there may have been times where my opponent mucked the best hand, but that's his fault. I don't show my hand afterward, since that's not my style.

I don't agree with the majority of tournament directors that the best hand should win. I normally play with good players. If they can't table their hands or read the board correctly, then I don't mind taking their money.

Barry

Tony Skaloni · 09-23-2009, 01:27 AM

my opinion is that u were definitely rightly awarded the pot fetzen. however imo this is an instance where the fist pump and the showing of your cards was definitely out of line. I'm sure u were just happy to win the pot but you have to be thinking about ur actions at all times. No reason to shove it in wolfe's face. You should have waited until he showed both of his cards and not said anything. Then when he mucks his hand then you muck yours and move on.

molinn9 · 09-23-2009, 01:53 AM

You must be so proud lol. Great all the pros thought this was fine isnt this world just wonderful haha.

PerpetualCzech · 09-23-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fetzenplayer

I've asked many friends (including pokerstars and full tilt pros) about my etiquette and none of them thought it was bad etiquette. I also sent a pm to Barry Greenstein asking about his opinion. He replied this:

Just curious, did you ask for his permission before you posted his PM?

Fetzenplayer · 09-23-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PerpetualCzech

Just curious, did you ask for his permission before you posted his PM?

Yes, sure I asked before posting.

chanchuan · 09-28-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teddyFBI

/ thread

Yes, that's pretty much it.

From what Tobias says during the interview however, flow no decent fluids. It seems to me that he was very very surprised to have won the hand and he sort of felt that he "tricked" his opponent (because he saw the king) and now is desperately trying to keep his cool and explain his "way of thinking" during the showdown.

Rulewise still, Tobias won, no doubt about it.

Jetto · 09-28-2009, 10:53 PM

I think the dealer made things alot more difficult then it should have been. yeah his hand touched the muck but why did the dealer have to show? if it was a showdown then usually the best hand wins unless you play at UB

macten · 10-22-2009, 10:35 PM

what I still dont get about this hand is....

didnt the Donk say "show both cards"?

isnt the dealer supposed to show both cards if a player makes this declaration if we are at showdown and donk calls a bet?

the way i look at it is like....

say player 1 bluffs, player 2 knows it and calls with his top pair, player 2 wont open, maybe shows a 6 matching one on the board, so player 1 says show both! show the other card! isnt it the same thing? doesnt the dealer have to show both?

ALSO...lets see that he didnt say show both, but he said show both OR muck, and the dealer misheard it and reacted in a way that would be consistent with the first thought.....wouldnt de Wolfe STILL win?

going by logic on how it would play out in other hands with different cards it plays out the same IMO...that the wrong player got the pot.

soapdodger · 10-22-2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fetzenplayer

I've asked many friends (including pokerstars and full tilt pros) about my etiquette and none of them thought it was bad etiquette. I also sent a pm to Barry Greenstein asking about his opinion. He replied this:

Originally Posted by barryg1
Tobias,

This wasn't a very unique situation (except for Roland showing one card) like the online guys think. I didn't want to post and have people who were amazed think I was trying to get my own compliments. I have made thin calls hundreds of times and waited to see the winning hand. If the guy wants to muck his hand, then I have no problem winning with my Ace or King high. I think there may have been times where my opponent mucked the best hand, but that's his fault. I don't show my hand afterward, since that's not my style.

I don't agree with the majority of tournament directors that the best hand should win. I normally play with good players. If they can't table their hands or read the board correctly, then I don't mind taking their money.

Barry

did barry fist pump when they muck?

Rekrul · 10-22-2009, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaniac

What is the problem with an "Expose or Muck" rule? So, when a player is called at showdown (or it gets checked and the OOP player or last aggressor has to reveal), he would have the right to shoot his cards in the muck or turn them over and let them play.

Then, there needss to be regarding what the other player must do, and I think that his hand should only have to be revealed if a player requests it--not something the dealer does as a matter of routine (I think dealers should be instructed to protect the winning hand from the muck for a reasonable amount of time for it to be retrieved).

Anyway, I actually think it's ludicrous to say these hand retrieval rules are useful for battling collusion. Instances where a players bets, gets called, and wants to muck his hand almost never have anything to do with collusion in my experience, and it definitely keeps the game more 'live" if you allow the practice.

And what exactly defines collusion in a poker game? Someone's on-the-spot opinion on the nature of how two people played a hand? It's not like there is a pokersite security team to investigate the behavior in detail. And what are the guidelines for dealing with various kinds of collusion from that point in live tournaments?

Let hands be mucked.

tru that

Laylow · 10-23-2009, 01:59 AM

Tobias was angle shooting. I'm not sure I would be pleased having to sit next to the guy after the call.

Result: I'd pay Barcelona crack fiends to Tanya Harding Tobias's knees after the tournament

RNauta · 10-23-2009, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macten

didnt the Donk say "show both cards"?

isnt the dealer supposed to show both cards if a player makes this declaration if we are at showdown and donk calls a bet?

the way i look at it is like....

say player 1 bluffs, player 2 knows it and calls with his top pair, player 2 wont open, maybe shows a 6 matching one on the board, so player 1 says show both! show the other card! isnt it the same thing? doesnt the dealer have to show both?

If you reply in topics where the last post was a month ago you could just as well read a few pages of it. Then you'd read that saying 'i want to see his hand' only applies if you ask about a mucked hand that has not yet touched the muck. Roland raised, Tobias called, so Roland shows first. Reminding him of the rules and saying he should showdown first isn't wrong. Your second example shows you don't know the rules at all. If player 2 calls and won't open, there is no problem. Player 1 is supposed to showdown first anyway.