Tx for the link, I just listened. Wow.

First off, Gavin Smith comes off like Steven Hawking debating Joe Sebok's Victoria Jackson. Props to his points right up until the part where the interest in this story is coming from kids watching cartoons in their basement. If by cartoons you mean online tables which actually feed the rake for those massive pro deals, then uh yeah.

Now to Joe. Where to begin. He starts by saying the list is sort of an organic creation devised by himself, Mookman and others and he didn't feel that putting the list out himself would be credible.

OK, so you guys just sort of dreamed up names like Saccavino and DiGioia along with their specific User Account IDs, Addresses, Phone Numbers, etc on UB? And did the names and IDs you dreamed up match exactly with the KGC report? Wait a second, I need to finish this bite of Capn Crunch. There. This explanation doesn't even deserve analysis. You were given a list of names/UserIDs from within the company and you forwarded it just like you said you would. If you are suggesting that is not the case, then my recommendation to you is Better Call Saul.

He goes on to say Mook jumped the gun (six months? good scotch doesn't become great for like 30 years dudes!)

"Some people on the list have been taken off" - OK, now we are getting somewhere. Of course when he finally publishes the information on a site friendly to him, the names removed will be Lyle and Freddy and the others who were only there based on money transfers which currently lead nowhere. The 23 will still stand (unless they change some of the fakes).

He says UB is not legally in a position to release the names? OK, I'll bite. Which statute or regulation at the KGC or for that matter which canon from the Cub Scout handbook prohibits UB from releasing information concerning individuals who they have proof defrauded both the company and its customers? Let me work on this gobbet of flesh my Capn Crunch just tore off the roof of my mouth while you think up an answer.

Moving on, People just want the SEXY story. No Joe, people just want the ****ing truth. No more, no less. BTW, usually the truth turns out to far sexier than the fantasy. One wonders for instance, whether Butterfly30 ever had an opportunity to meet Sluppy and how did that meeting go?

I will give you major props for one statement because as so often happens a little bit of truth actually did manage to seep out. Not BP gushers of truth, but we'll take it. You specifically stated and I wholeheartedly agree "I've tried to stay away from factual statements". Well said.

Have not had a chance to listen to the Pokerroad thing yet. I see he said something like I jumped the gun.

Well, after a long time of nothing and one project that failed, I just assumed to turn over the list to Haley since her blogs were gaining the most attention and she seemed to be making more progress than anyone else at the time.

Haley was the one that released most of the names, which were the fakes. Did Joe say that she jumped the gun as well? Or does it just fall back on me b/c I broke Joe's trust by sending out the list?

I agree about the fact that some of these names had to come from UB. How else would UserIds, addresses, and phone numbers be included?

A few questions and points id like to make.

#1) Any news on possible archived hand histories being found anywhere?
Or are they confirmed 100% destroyed?

#2) Concerning time lines....I recall that when nl was first taking off,
that Spirit Rock was crushing the game for a while then starting
running bad...Does this timeline correlate with the start of the cheating?

Too many players/props including myself have suspected they were cheated
in the limit games. Why is this being swept under the rug just because
someone who can't be trusted said it only happened in NL? I estimate I
alone was cheated approx between 5-15k over a period of 2-3 months when
I propped there for over 2 years. Lots of money to be had there. Let
me put it in perspective, playing 10-20 to 30-60 Ive had many months
where ive won 25-30k. Now imagine if I could see your cards. In other
words 100's of thousands were there for the taking in the limit games.

what pokercast episode is this discussed in?

These are interrelated; at least for UB. In Kozai's affidavit, he seemed to suggest all of the HHs exist on servers at MIT. UB hasn't fully released HHs to my knowledge. If they did, deeper more insidious cheating might be caught dating further back and in more games/limits. This is one of the biggest reasons to keep the investigation alive; keep pressure on so the company knows it will never be free until it comes completely clean.

Part of the problem is the company refused to use a standardized HH format which means that data mining companies like Poker-Edge, etc may not go back to the beginning. There was a poster here who seemed to be seeking money for HHs called UBDataRus, but I don't know if he had Limit hands. Is there any interest in the Limit forums to get players to pool HHs from that time period in order to determine if certain players had extraordinary winrates?

Poker-Edge does show on archived versions of their website that they were mining UB fairly early on.

Episode #126 - June 11th, 2010

After listening to the pokerroad radio show, I have a few more questions that I haven't seen addressed, although many will go unanswered.

Firstly, Mookman, why did Joe leak the list to you? He kind of says that he can't release it himself as he longer has any credibility.

Also, why are there still no named sources for the information that is released? Joe's "they don't want their names out there for obvious reasons," is not a good enough excuse.

Then, he states that people were taken off list as he doesn't "feel" that they were involved? I am mostly prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume that he meant that he had sufficient evidence to prove that they were not involved, however for someone in the media, his precise wordings often cause more confusion than clarity.

Finally, he makes a reasonable but flawed argument at the end of the podcast. He says that he might as well join ub as, to paraphrase, big companies simply don't stop operating or go out of business, so he may as well make them as good as possible. What he fails to see is that if a poker site was completely shunned by players, sponsored or not, and the media, that the likelihood is that it would soon enough be an unprofitable business, thus eventually no longer a business at all.

how can you tell when Paul Leggett and Joe Sebok are lying

I cannot speak for Joe, so I do not know for sure. My guess is b/c for a long time I was considered the "ub guy" on 2+2 who kept posting about it, making threads, and looking into this. I had read every post, press release, and interview related to UB. I think he wanted my help b/c I spent a lot of time on this, but since I am not connected in the industry, I am only limited to random PMs I get and what I can find using the internet. I guess Joe said something like he didn't want to be the one releasing the names, so maybe he figured I would do it; which happened eventually.

I have just finished listening to the Pokerroad show. I will add my 2 cents later on.

That's probably a fair description. Joe has not made any points with me lately. It's also possibly related to why Wicked Chops Poker failed today to publish the first in their own series on the UB scandal, contrary to what I was told. I've been overly patient with Chops in this matter and I wish to respect some excellent work that he's done, but I am getting frustrated with him.

Early on I asked Nat not to mention me by name in the posts, and I did the same when talking to KevMath about the UB scandal sticky, because I wanted to dig quietly behind the scenes. I believe both Serge and Josem knew I was involved as well. The person that first pointed out the old CP story citing Greg Pierson as UB's principal founder was... me. Any of them can verify this stuff if they want, but your nonsense is just that, nonsense. You won't see a ton of Gary Wise in those early threads, either, but he was working the story as well.

As for "withholding information," please mind that I write about the topics I want to write about, and I do so when I want to write about them, your efforts to manipulate the UB/AP scandal threads and its main participants notwithstanding. I am saving some of my bullets for the future and allowing some of these crooks to make more mistakes in dealing with what I've published so far, and your omission of all the AP screengrabs I've published is, well, curious at the very least. Besides, you're the one hiding his identity, not so? I dare say you're the one whose agenda bears further examination. It looks like you've splayed yourself into the middle of all this with a pile of information that's about 85-90% accurate, and you're trying to blast everyone apart that isn't moving in the directions you want them to move, despite arriving very late on the scene.

(By the way, the Cereus thing about them pulling out of the Kahnawake reserve is true. I heard it a few weeks back. I think it's totally a cost-saving measure and they plan to consolidate in Costa Rica, where the overhead is less. I believe they'll leave a few people in the Kahnawake office for show, the same way UB did it when they set up shop there in the first place. I did see the updated calvinayre.com story today, thanks to Michalski.)

As for me building on Mook's efforts, the only things directly traceable to Mook are the "fakes" list I've published very recently. It's no secret at all that Mook and I had some very bad blood between us for a long while, and I wouldn't work with him for well over a year until he got his head out of his ass regarding some false accusations he made about me. Sorry, Mook, for being so blunt about that. It's over and done with, and don't let this EG play his games. EG's been trying to "redirect" me for a month or so, and I'm getting tired of it. And EG, exactly why did you pull down the photo of Negreanu in the UB gear?

Not true, but Mookman has done a ton of positive things in this effort, and should be commended for them. He is indeed a pit bull.

Can't disagree with this. You've cleared the Mendoza line, but just barely.

bmw750li was a limit bot

bmw750i was a superuser, i may have them mixed up, but i think i got it correct, there was definitely one of each

great site.

I'd like to commend both Mookman and Haley for their work on the UB scandal.

I do take some of the questions in this thread seriously, but trust that you'll explain yourself in the end.

.

it's very nice that CEREUS leaked the names of a few "people of interest" other than already exposed by 2+2 plus a bunch of fakes all without any backup documentation so now Joe Sebok can check it off his list and Joe can say "it's over now lets get back to poker"

the most important issue is the ownership issue - prove the old owners i.e Greg Pierson, Scott Tom ect... are still running the show and the game is up for CEREUS
the fact that AP/UB are packing out of Joe Norton territory for Costa Rica reflects Norton's weak position within the company imo

it's up