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Old 03-20-2017, 10:38 PM   #851
Howard Treesong
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by _jimbo_ View Post
In all fairness. Mike has a point here. Outside of a couple of questionable calls pre, his reads were mostly spot on.

His call with q5 was laughable. Is that what you mean?
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:38 PM   #852
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

Part 1:


Part 2:
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:41 PM   #853
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
I saw at least two hands when he was bluffing and was talking, the 777xx board where she had AJ and another one that I don't remember the specifics of.

The problem for him was that he literally had no hands, or had a bad run out in a huge percentage of hands, so there was no real way he could play any kind of balanced strategy, e.g. bet big on the river when he had it or didn't have it or bet small on the river when he had it or didn't have it........ because he hardly ever had it.

So the best strategy he could have adopted IMO in both games, after he had gone to sub $8K in chips was to basically nit it up. Although even if he had done this the hole cards continued to be awful, but it would have at least bought him some more time and given him a better statistical chance of say doubling through twice from 4K to 16K in each game, particularly as the blinds were due to increase after a certain number of hands meaning that he would then have far more scope to apply some pressure with his short stack.

Yes I acknowledge that he did miss a couple of spots to bet his equity, e.g. betting a gutshot when checked to when his stack was ~15K but this I think falls under the category of him being a bit under prepared HU strat wise.

But overall, he was in a very tough spot in both games due to horrible hole cards and flops, and this was accentuated by Cate basically wearing a wire to her coaches thus gaining an additional advantage.


I agree that he ran bad. That does make it tough. But his reaction to it was the opposite of what I'd want to see In any quality player.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:43 PM   #854
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by Hendricks View Post
Lmao.

Forget the poker played for a minute.

The latest to come out is that the very dislikable Cate Hall stiffed the dealers entirely. Not a cent paid to them despite the immense help they gave her!! She really is a gross person.
I don't blame her for not tipping. I wouldn't think of it either.

She wasn't paid anything to be on the show. They didn't pay her travel. It was on her dime. It's not crazy to think a professional production would pay the dealers. They're already free-rolling on the talent.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:17 PM   #855
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong View Post
All of that is possible in theory, but Mike did not show one molecule of an ability to react well to adversity. His immediate reaction was to whine about runbad. At what point in the match did he make a single quality play that would have been asymmetric? He also demonstrated a total inability to understand dan and shawn's analysis as to why he butchered the last hand. Literally none. It's also criminally stupid to not sleep and play late the night before, then refuse to get live data and instead cram six Red Bulls. His preparation was poor. His analysis was poor. His attitude was poor. And his execution was poor. His live tricks (like his slow roll and his habit of showing one bad card) were both obvious and ineffective. I did think his apology for lying about showing the j6 hand was sincere. I'd lay 140 on a rematch.
It is true that he is a different kind of player to many other players and to people who focus mainly on playing on line poker and I agree that in some areas he didn't adapt to the specific structure of the game that they were playing, and yes sure it is down to him that he didn't plan ahead to counter the extra info she got by getting it too himself or by mixing his playing style up more once he realised she was getting hands sent to her.

But then again, his hole cards were so bad that it was very difficult to mix his game strat up and the match was also too short to enable this.

I do think that her getting hands and advice sent to her was huge. The obvious thing that she must have been told was that his fold frequency on the the river was quite high in game 1 with 2nd or 3rd pair. It's obvious she was told this as she bet a lot on the river in game 2.

As already stated, it was also easy for her to steal small pots when they both missed in game 2 because she had a 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1 chip lead very early.

You know, being told about the previous hands and Mike's tendencies in the match *is* a minor version equivalent of having superuser status in an on line game and it should not be underestimated how big an advantage this was to Cate.

I think given all of the circumstances, that virtually any player would have tilted a bit in Mike's shoes, and this was no ordinary game played anonymously on line or in a casino with a few other people seeing it who don't even care who does what, it was mass broadcast so when things are going either very well or very badly for you the positive or negative psychological impact of it will be amplified.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:23 PM   #856
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by boredoo View Post
I don't blame her for not tipping. I wouldn't think of it either.

She wasn't paid anything to be on the show. They didn't pay her travel. It was on her dime. It's not crazy to think a professional production would pay the dealers. They're already free-rolling on the talent.

Its been very much confirmed that she knew all about it. Once it was established that PNIA were not tipping the dealers (which from what I can understand is entirely the norm) any respectable 'pro' player would certainly tip them especially given her success in the heads up match. Unfortunately she's completely classless and so they got stiffed.

As an aside the likes of Deeb were regularly tipping during the cash game on Saturday.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:29 PM   #857
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by boredoo View Post
I don't blame her for not tipping. I wouldn't think of it either.

She wasn't paid anything to be on the show. They didn't pay her travel. It was on her dime. It's not crazy to think a professional production would pay the dealers. They're already free-rolling on the talent.
are you serious? she played a 15 k 4 hour heads up match that was probably rake free and gave her exposure

shes a piece of garbage if she didn't tip

say what you want about dentale but he always tips dealers well.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:38 PM   #858
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by _jimbo_ View Post
In all fairness. Mike has a point here. Outside of a couple of questionable calls pre, his reads were mostly spot on.
Yeah, his c/c w/T5o on 334 was pretty good.
c/c'ing turn w/J3o on KT2T after flop goes c/c is also a standard play.
I could go on. I don't feel I need to since those are so ****ing awful.

Last edited by .isolated; 03-20-2017 at 11:39 PM. Reason: you're trolling, right :D
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:47 PM   #859
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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are you serious? she played a 15 k 4 hour heads up match that was probably rake free and gave her exposure

shes a piece of garbage if she didn't tip

say what you want about dentale but he always tips dealers well.
Cate's whole schtick is a campaigning stance of equality, liberty and humanity to all, which is in conflict with what she does for a living, whereby if a drug addled, gambling addict, drunk person who's also a novice at the game joins her cash game table then she would be equal first with others on the table to pounce on this prey and send the person spiraling further downwards into the depths of despair.

But then I guess she/they/we/anybody is doing no wrong in these circumstances, because it is only providing a service in a vice industry that meets someone's demand/need and charging them for the privilege.

The difference is that most people don't Tweet in disgust about the injustices and ills of society in between stacking this poor unfortunate soul at the poker table.

We do not know yet, but if the information of Cate not tipping whilst being aware that the dealers were on low pay and received no tip from the house, then not tipping them is just an extension of her modus operandi of maximising her financial gains within the vice industry that is poker.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 03-21-2017 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:51 PM   #860
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
It is true that he is a different kind of player to many other players and to people who focus mainly on playing on line poker and I agree that in some areas he didn't adapt to the specific structure of the game that they were playing, and yes sure it is down to him that he didn't plan ahead to counter the extra info she got by getting it too himself or by mixing his playing style up more once he realised she was getting hands sent to her.

But then again, his hole cards were so bad that it was very difficult to mix his game strat up and the match was also too short to enable this.

I do think that her getting hands and advice sent to her was huge. The obvious thing that she must have been told was that his fold frequency on the the river was quite high in game 1 with 2nd or 3rd pair. It's obvious she was told this as she bet a lot on the river in game 2.

As already stated, it was also easy for her to steal small pots when they both missed in game 2 because she had a 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1 chip lead very early.

You know, being told about the previous hands and Mike's tendencies in the match *is* a minor version equivalent of having superuser status in an on line game and it should not be underestimated how big an advantage this was to Cate.

I think given all of the circumstances, that virtually any player would have tilted a bit in Mike's shoes, and this was no ordinary game played anonymously on line or in a casino with a few other people seeing it who don't even care who does what, it was mass broadcast so when things are going either very well or very badly for you the positive or negative psychological impact of it will be amplified.


I'm a live rec player and I am confident that I would not have tilted in mike's shoes. I would have never called 20BB with q5 off nor called a turn bet with T5o on 334. I also would have slept the night before and read a rudimentary theory book on short handed play.

I agree that Hall should have tipped.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:07 AM   #861
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
So it was an arrogant liberal lawyer who says one thing about the little guy but stiffs them when it comes to brass tacks vs a crude blowhard who manages to offend everyone but actually does look out for the little guy?

Sounds like Nov 8 with a different outcome.
Also Cate's charity she was playing for (or encouraging donations to on the stream) was something to do with protecting journalists' freedom to write or express themselves or similar, and Mike's charity was something to do with providing free medical care for the disadvantaged/poor.

(apologies if my descriptions of the respective charities are vague and/or not completely accurate)

So this to me is a difference between the two players in another respect. Based on their choice of charities alone, which I accept is a only a tiny piece of who each person is, one person is intellectually kind and the other person is kind in a practical sense.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 03-21-2017 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:15 AM   #862
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

Here's the twitter thread about tipping.

Cliffs:
She didn't tip
She didn't know PNIA wasn't paying the dealers

Edit: She just tipped them

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Old 03-21-2017, 12:20 AM   #863
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
Yeah, his c/c w/T5o on 334 was pretty good.
c/c'ing turn w/J3o on KT2T after flop goes c/c is also a standard play.
I could go on. I don't feel I need to since those are so ****ing awful.
Let's not forget when he cbet 72ss on QhTh2d, then called snap called a >1/2pot bet on the 8h river after the turn was As.

Atrocious.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:25 AM   #864
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

I think it's just so totally standard to tip the dealers after a big win or a relatively big win in a HU cash match, which is effectively what it was. It is just common courtesy as everyone knows that dealers have a largely thankless task and rely heavily on tips to bring some extra sunshine into their lives.

So unless you are told outright by the floor / the organisers / the production company to
*not* tip the dealers, then just tip them because it is a part of their livelihood and aside from that it's about the feel good factor as it's good to spread a little happiness when and where you can.

Obvious exception, where one doesn't usually tip, is something like EPT (Pokerstars Championship) or other Poker Tours tournaments where the organisers are very transparent about taking a certain percentage out of the prize pool for dealers and floor staff.

But in cash games........ come on, we all know you should tip.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:25 AM   #865
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Old 03-21-2017, 12:25 AM   #866
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

Alert!!!!! Poker player doesn't tip ! more at 6!!!!


oh wait that happens a million times a day all over the world, who cares it is your (The players) money, choose if you feel you should tip someone for their service or not (on top of their wage). It was 3 heads up sit n gos , no? I bet if you survey all of the tournament pros on how many of them tip after a tournament it would be a pretty low amount

Especially when you are on a live streamed , invite only event where you are part of drawing ~10k viewers for the people hosting the event. You might presume the people hosting the event would take care of the dealers as well if you haven't been in that situation before. (a broadcasted HU match that was scheduled for months etc)


edit: oh also with her paying $500 to dealers now out of money she is owed it really was just a big misunderstanding of her assuming the event would take care of their dealers properly (instead of the rumored $30 for 6 hrs or w.e bull****) , considering the players didn't get paid any money for travel or time commitments etc. Funny how idiots jump on this as a morale issue and start drilling into cate even more. I dislike the way she acts on twitter / broadcast as much as the next person but it's silly to jump on something like this.

Last edited by TreadLightly; 03-21-2017 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:35 AM   #867
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by TreadLightly View Post
Alert!!!!! Poker player doesn't tip ! more at 6!!!!


oh wait that happens a million times a day all over the world, who cares it is your (The players) money, choose if you feel you should tip someone for their service or not (on top of their wage). It was 3 heads up sit n gos , no? I bet if you survey all of the tournament pros on how many of them tip after a tournament it would be a pretty low amount

Especially when you are on a live streamed , invite only event where you are part of drawing ~10k viewers for the people hosting the event. You might presume the people hosting the event would take care of the dealers as well if you haven't been in that situation before. (a broadcasted HU match that was scheduled for months etc)


edit: oh also with her paying $500 to dealers now out of money she is owed it really was just a big misunderstanding of her assuming the event would take care of their dealers properly (instead of the rumored $30 for 6 hrs or w.e bull****) , considering the players didn't get paid any money for travel or time commitments etc.
Yes because the casino and gaming industry are such an ethical bunch, so we can safely assume that they treat their employees with the utmost of respect and gratitude and pay them handsomely and furnish them with a plethora of other generous benefits.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:46 AM   #868
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

I was really surprised to hear Dougs commentary and how he seems laser focused on being GTO, even against a total drooler like Dentale. Obviously he's a brilliant player, but I wonder if he realizes how much he's leaving on the table in soft lineups (like Live at the Bike).
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:56 AM   #869
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

Really great commentary from Shaun and Doug, and I found it fascinating.

One of the most striking conversations of the night for me was where they were discussing the statement "GTO won't ever lose you money" and Doug's point that this is essentially just a cop-out statement or basically a massive understatement, as there are a bunch of spots where it will just print

I thought that Doug's analysis was very salient especially when talking about intuition vs GTO, about all the times he had seen intuition go wrong, and how it clouds discussion of hand histories

At the same time I thought there were a couple spots where Deeb's reads were just spot on regardless of results, and that he had a good eye for the gameflow. Case in point I think would be the early hand where she checked back A8x with a weak Ace, bet the T turn, and then the brick river. Mike had 87o , flopped middle pair.

Shaun seemed to think that given flow / dynamic, 87 was a fold given Cate's flop cbet tendencies. Doug was much more indifferent IIRC and thought that 87 would be a reasonable calling hand. I thought Shaun was right on this one, but hey, thats the great part about poker - we'll never know for sure.

Great stuff and I'm looking forward to more in the future
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:06 AM   #870
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

It was already well established that Cate Hall was a scummy poker player looking to push any edge she can, such as stiffing the dealers if she can get away with it. However, I don't get why PNIA doesn't pay the dealers. It's such a paltry expense. I guess their justification is that the dealers have no leverage and will work for free. Really pathetic PNIA.

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Old 03-21-2017, 01:10 AM   #871
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

the thing is, you can 'know for sure'. We have NLHE solvers that give an ultimate answer of what an equilibrium strat is.

I'm in dougs camp in that at the end of the day its the same game and everything comes out to ranges, equities, blockers, reverse blockers and so on. There may be something to 'live reads' but as Doug said they should never be used to justify massive deviations from your baseline strat because assuming your baseline strat is stronger than your villains, it will always win
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:12 AM   #872
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
Here's the twitter thread about tipping.

Cliffs:
She didn't tip
She didn't know PNIA wasn't paying the dealers

Edit: She just tipped them

ok so she did tip. Also worthy of noting, she was under the assumption that the dealers were paid when she made the initial decision to not tip. I see no foul here
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:15 AM   #873
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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ok so she did tip. Also worthy of noting, she was under the assumption that the dealers were paid when she made the initial decision to not tip. I see no foul here
She's getting into it with Matt Glantz now. She was actually given $500 from the casino and also comped room at the local Hilton. She really is the most insufferable individual.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:17 AM   #874
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

She also added she wouldn't take part in anymore PNIA , then someone tweeted if she would play dan bilzerian headsup on it and she said yes. x)
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:25 AM   #875
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Re: Cate Hall v. Mike Dentale HU4rlz?

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She also added she wouldn't take part in anymore PNIA , then someone tweeted if she would play dan bilzerian headsup on it and she said yes. x)
she also said she wouldn't get coaching for this match which clearly wasn't the case. But whatever. I think it would be entertaining to see her playing blitz hu so I'll hope it goes that way
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