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Old 08-15-2017, 01:36 PM   #126
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
https://www.safestpokersites.com/failed/

Quite a few mentioned in the above failed well after Black Friday.

Ultimate Poker was a Las Vegas based, post-Black Friday startup, with Jason Sommerville as one of it's main guys. It ended up going bust due to vast revenue shortfalls.
That's the point. The compliance costs are a much larger percentage of the budget of a small new site than a large established site. It's a lot easier to have revenue shortfalls with high taxes, startup delays, compliance legal costs, and licensing fees if you're new, and it's going to be a lot harder to compete on price by operating on a shoestring budget in the beginning.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:09 PM   #127
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Melea, I have alot of respect for your knowledge in the online poker space (your anon video was the nuts)

However the bolded is big disconnect for me that I hear echoed repeatedly from many posters. Though its true, its such a small % of addressable market for sites that they really dont care whether the dreamers play or not.

Undoubtedly There are SOME that play online with the dream of being the next isuldur, but I gotta believe that in the real world outside of 2+2 vast majority of online poker customer segment just dont look at the world in terms of long term win rate in the same way they dont think nor care about rake.
Yes, you're right. I edited my post after I wrote it and added the "being able to dream" part, but I agree it's probably incorrect as written:

I agree the majority of active accounts don't have such ambitions as their main reason for playing poker. As in most discussions on this topic though, "player pool" can mean very different things depending on whether an actual count of individual accounts are being referred to, or whether we're talking about bums on seats. Negreanu, Jones and the rest of the PR machine like to talk about how "only 2%" of players will be affected when they, say, scam players out of millions of dollars, whereas we know that that 2% represents a very significant factor in having games run.

So, as explained in the previous post and in the past, I think it's very short-sighted to think you can simply switch 90 million(?) players from a skilled game of poker to something very different and expect the same (or greater) amount of profit because there are many contributing factors that prevent it from happening. These include the removal of "winning/break-even/losing but ambitious" players that contribute significantly to game traffic, and the fact that many of the recreational player probably already play casino-style games and, whereas poker offers them enough variety to gamble even more, they may have no desire to play what would essentially be more of the same. (E.g. If I play soccer regularly and also go to a gym, if that gym [ridiculously] transformed into another soccer club then I'm not going to play twice as much soccer- I'm going to join another gym.)
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:41 PM   #128
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

What's frustrating for people who rely on the game for a living is the dishonesty and greed Stars are showing. Poker has always been different from other forms of gambling in that the competition is not the house but other players and then the house takes a generous cut. This business has been and still is extremely lucrative for Stars but that's not enough.

They need to find ways to contort the game in such a way that they get a bigger and bigger piece of the pie until poker is indistinguishable from some random table game. Instead of being upfront with customers who have played on the site for years, they try to make out that it's in the players interests that more money is being taken out of the game. Hopefully a line in the sand has been drawn with cutting rb to effectively nothing because if they keep messing with the games there will be nothing left.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:04 PM   #129
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

Anybody arguing that recreational players just want to gamble and don't care about skill and outplaying people -- have you ever been to a casino? Maybe 1 in 25 recreational players are gambling, the other 24 are entirely convinced that they're outplaying everyone and everyone else is making mistakes, and they're more than willing to be vocal and point out when they think someone else made a mistake. People play poker because they think they can outsmart the other people at the table and make money. If you take this away, poker dies.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:07 AM   #130
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

^^

I guess I really dont even know what we are discussing anymore ITT, but nobody said recs dont want to win, or that dont think they can out smart anyone in any given hand.

at least I was discussing whether an expected long term win rate is requirement for the majority of players to play. I'd argue no, else poker would not exist live or online .

(or this is a group of extremely stubborn people as most players lose yet continue to play. I lost online for years and still played cuz it was a freakin blast and occasionally I would bink something or go on a cash game heater. Could I have loaded up all the tools and watched all the videos and studied more and maybe not been such a baddie? maybe . but it wasnt that important to me in relation to extra effort required)

Stars' mutation of the game of poker as many believe it should exist, along with their 2015 gang rape of SNE's, and ongoing disingenuous marketing communications aside...

.... believe that plenty of players will play whatever it is you call the game they now offer with no expectation or realistic hope of long term winrate.

All of your chips are belong to Stars.

Last edited by PTLou; 08-16-2017 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:31 AM   #131
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
^^

I guess I really dont even know what we are discussing anymore ITT, but nobody said recs dont want to win, or that dont think they can out smart anyone in any given hand.

at least I was discussing whether an expected long term win rate is requirement for the majority of players to play. I'd argue no, else poker would not exist live or online .

(or this is a group of extremely stubborn people as most players lose yet continue to play. I lost online for years and still played cuz it was a freakin blast and occasionally I would bink something or go on a cash game heater. Could I have loaded up all the tools and watched all the videos and studied more and maybe not been such a baddie? maybe . but it wasnt that important to me in relation to extra effort required)

Stars' mutation of the game of poker as many believe it should exist, along with their 2015 gang rape of SNE's, and ongoing disingenuous marketing communications aside...

.... believe that plenty of players will play whatever it is you call the game they now offer with no expectation or realistic hope of long term winrate.

All of your chips are belong to Stars.
this is one of those " is it everyone else or is it me"

see your basing your theory off of the fact that you donked around and couldnt beat a game but its ok because you were having a blast. id be willing to bet my roll if we had a magical time machine and went back to when you were donking around youd be telling us how your going to go pro soon.

im judging off of the people i play with , i literally hear them say the craziest **** of why theyre winning players and are unlucky. also i know complete degen problem gamblers who only play scratch tickets and guess what ....... they think they are long term winners who can sense winning tickets or god told them they will win or they had a dream about it ect.

your confusing morals with ability. yes stars has the ability to do whatever they want at any given time so does anyone. but there will be consequences to there actions . all it will take is the right site with the right people or technology to create something better, get popular and its game over for stars. they will have no base , no loyal customers all because the wanted that precious little bit more.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:54 AM   #132
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
...
(or this is a group of extremely stubborn people as most players lose yet continue to play. I lost online for years and still played cuz it was a freakin blast and occasionally I would bink something or go on a cash game heater. Could I have loaded up all the tools and watched all the videos and studied more and maybe not been such a baddie? maybe . but it wasnt that important to me in relation to extra effort required)
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case with most of the live players who are attracted to these threads.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:15 AM   #133
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by fishfood69er View Post
id be willing to bet my roll if we had a magical time machine and went back to when you were donking around youd be telling us how your going to go pro soon.

Call

Though my personal experiences are largely irrelevant , my demographic was a very common one in the boom boom days of yesteryear. Also likely very similar to the demographics Stars is targeting today.

I had a career, family and no reason nor desire to ever be a "pro", live or online.

Had I ever binked the proverbial Sunday Millions, a chunk of that would have been withdrawn and some of it would have been the fodder for one of those threads with hilarious HHs where dude binks a big MTT and then jumps into high stakes cash game much to the amusement of 2+2 and the financial windfall for which ever regs lucky enough to be on the table at the time.

You are looking at the world through only your perspective. I recognize that there were many players like yourself, you should recognize that for each of you there 10s or 100s of me.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:44 AM   #134
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

When I could still play on PartyPoker, I used to change my screen name every 6 months to try and foil the multi-tabling pros who could use poker software and heads up displays to gain a significant advantage. PokerStars never allowed you to change your screen name and the only reason I can think of for this is that they were afraid of alienating all the regs.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:37 AM   #135
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
They may not aspire to be pros, but they absolutely like to think they can get reads, or be tricky, or use their wits somehow to win. That's what makes the game fun. That's why we had a poker boom, not a craps boom.

To believe that you could take the skill out of the game and still attract players, you would have to either be extremely cynical (assuming the customers are profoundly stupid), or simply not understand the game at all (like short-sighted Amaya execs).
ever walk in a casino?
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:19 AM   #136
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
Interesting choice by PokerStars to double down on the vilifying of pros. I became interested in poker in 2003 because I was inspired by the professionals I saw on TV. Daniel Negreanu was one of them. It's sad to see what he and the company he represents have become.

It seems awfully cynical to think that an effect strat is to jingle keys in the face of recs, give them slot machine games, and assure them that they have a shark-free safe space. Maybe I'm getting old and out of touch, but one of the biggest draws to this game was the dream of climbing the ladder and earning a seat next to DNegs or Tom Dwan, purely by using your intuition and outwitting the competition.

If you kill that dream, what's even the point of having sponsored pros? Nobody's going to look up to those people if this narrative succeeds in being pushed.
This. The company as is severely deserves to die now. Good game AmayaGambleStars. Pls go and die. Either that or Unibet, PartyPoker and other more customer-friendly operators will hopefully make you come back to your senses. But I doubt you want to come back to sense.

The only thing on AmayaGambolStars which is still half-way profitable is tourneys but they've started to attack them as well more and more during the past years and months: Introducing antes from the get go, fees, hiding the fees, blind level changes, stack size changes, more hypers and turbos, list goes on and on...
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:28 AM   #137
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by Duffman08 View Post
I haven't been an online pro since BlackFriday....
But as an observer it's quite sad to see the approach the new owners of PokerStars are taking.
Trying to compete with the Video Game world (I mean the most popular game is free for **** sake LoL) seems like a fools errand.

One of the greatest marketing and drawer of new depositors is the stories/allure of people being able to escape the working world and carve out their own path playing a game...and by killing these stories through increased rake at the low-stakes / micros you destroy a huge potential customer segment (one in which trying to lure video game nerds who can play far funner games for free won't make up for).

Obviously Degens will love these new game formats but they will play whatever you offer them anyways because well...they're degens.

I would love to see an argument where spending massive amounts towards marketing towards Gamers (I mean this segment doesn't even have $ for **** sake because they're spending their time grinding games and are much more likely to become the very thing the current owners despise i.e. analytical mass tabling grinders) and destroying the segment that has fueled the poker economy for years (the Dreamers) comes out ahead in the long run.

IMO, PStars is placing the blame on too many grinders when the most definite biggest driver of online poker decline is quite simply the abolishment/segragation of the countries with the most disposable incomes (USA, Italy, Spain, now AUS? ). If this isn't rectified, no marketing ploy can possibly revive the online poker economy to compete with the booming gaming economy.
Exactly this and this must be one of the best posts on here summing up the situation quite fun and neat.

One not all too bad suggestion would be instead to simply restrict 24-CG-tablers from existing. Max. 2 or 4 tables or so.

But all these things have been said and suggested a mirrion times already anyways...
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:29 AM   #138
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by coach999 View Post
This is actually quite incredible. Pokerstars openly saying they don't want winning players on their site. Also admitting the only reason why the rewards structure was changed last month is because grinders were making too much off rewards! Absolutely unbelievable. Now of course we all suspected this but here you have a CEO telling the world exactly that. Not very smart!
Furthermore, he says "The site is getting a good response from players to the new loyalty program" That is a flat out lie! Majority is complaining about it, even casual players hate it and are leaving the site.

Well, sad to see Pokerstars go in that direction but this is exactly what happens when businessmen, who don't know much about poker, take over a pokersite...
Agree, however, it is not at all unbelievable as all of us have repeatedly said that for years and years for at least wan mirrion times... We can only dream on of Isai buying AmayaSpingoMaxCasinoStars back

Now that they flat-out openly communicate poker pros being bad they have sealed their own fate and basically Dnegs and all the other more credible pros like Selbst (hello Doug!), Igor Kurganov and so on in their roster need to get called out hard for the hypocrites they are if they won't leave.
Funny also how this POS company calls online Poker pros "semi-professional gamblers" to up-keep and convey the image that Poker is essentially gambling.
Shame on your CEO Rafi Ashkenazi as well as on you as a whole as market leader.

Whenever one thought that there's some reason left in the company, like generously helping out the Full Tilt or very recently the PKR players when they don't have to they keep f---ing that image up and even worse the next instance.

2-time EPT winner Vicky Coren was not even a real full-time pro but still had the balls to kick AmayaGambolCasinoStars in their balls and leave their roster when they introduced spingos. I loved her parting statement, too. She's not a big wig name but still did a decent job to raise public awareness and expose them for the fake frauds that they are. Anybody with a love for the game needs to love her for that.

Same gos for Isaac Haxton that left their roster complaining about their deeds. Much love.

And the same gos for example for Doug Polk who keeps criticizing all things that are unethical and wrong in the industry. Due to his financial and personal independence he can address all of these issues.

These are some of the people in the game that I definitely look up to.

It seems like smaller, more unsafe sites, live and MTT is the direction playing Poker for a living is taking.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:33 AM   #139
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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I don't know why they don't just cut the max tables down to 3 or 4 and ban any kind of 3rd party software. That would solve the problem way better then all the measures to date. I doubt Pokerstars minds great players not matter how good they are. The real problem is that great player is able to play 10+ tables of 200nl and grind away profit like a machine against players of a much lower skill level with lower variance then playing 1 or 2 tables at their true skill level. They play like a machine because they can use software and also avoid boredom by playing so many tables versus just one.

Live games are so much softer then online because each great player can play just one table. If each 5/10+ nl player could play five 1/2nl games simultaneously live poker would suck pretty bad too.
Exactly this.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:43 AM   #140
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Who said anything about crafting a game the "skilled" players will refuse to play? It seems to me Stars is just ending the pampering and compensation of high-volume, and by assumption higher skilled, players. Stars isn't prohibiting "skilled" or winning players, they just aren't going to lavish them with rakeback, perks, and comps, etc. like the old days. Isn't this all we're really talking about?
No, that's wrong and not what is happening. GambolStars also introduced and massively advertises unbeatable or near-unbeatable gamble variants of poker like PowerUp, Spingo, SpingoMax.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:21 AM   #141
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by zrap View Post
I don't know why they don't just cut the max tables down to 3 or 4 and ban any kind of 3rd party software. That would solve the problem way better then all the measures to date. I doubt Pokerstars minds great players not matter how good they are. The real problem is that great player is able to play 10+ tables of 200nl and grind away profit like a machine against players of a much lower skill level with lower variance then playing 1 or 2 tables at their true skill level. They play like a machine because they can use software and also avoid boredom by playing so many tables versus just one.

Live games are so much softer then online because each great player can play just one table. If each 5/10+ nl player could play five 1/2nl games simultaneously live poker would suck pretty bad too.
+1
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:42 PM   #142
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

If Stars were to carry on down this path so that the skill element was all but removed from all of their games, would there be an argument for not letting them into the US market (should the opportunity arise) due to the fact that they no longer offered skill-based poker?
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:05 PM   #143
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffman08 View Post
I haven't been an online pro since BlackFriday....
But as an observer it's quite sad to see the approach the new owners of PokerStars are taking.
Trying to compete with the Video Game world (I mean the most popular game is free for **** sake LoL) seems like a fools errand.

One of the greatest marketing and drawer of new depositors is the stories/allure of people being able to escape the working world and carve out their own path playing a game...and by killing these stories through increased rake at the low-stakes / micros you destroy a huge potential customer segment (one in which trying to lure video game nerds who can play far funner games for free won't make up for).

Obviously Degens will love these new game formats but they will play whatever you offer them anyways because well...they're degens.

I would love to see an argument where spending massive amounts towards marketing towards Gamers (I mean this segment doesn't even have $ for **** sake because they're spending their time grinding games and are much more likely to become the very thing the current owners despise i.e. analytical mass tabling grinders) and destroying the segment that has fueled the poker economy for years (the Dreamers) comes out ahead in the long run.

IMO, PStars is placing the blame on too many grinders when the most definite biggest driver of online poker decline is quite simply the abolishment/segragation of the countries with the most disposable incomes (USA, Italy, Spain, now AUS? ). If this isn't rectified, no marketing ploy can possibly revive the online poker economy to compete with the booming gaming economy.
Here's the thing... what pokerstars is doing is just plain good business... The value of their business model is their player base. And the most valuable part of that player base are the fun players with disposable income they're willing to lose, period end of story. It's not in anyway the pro player who bases his livelihood on avoiding gambling as much as possible and attempting to extract money from the site... In the article and interview with their CEO they talk about potential mergers with sports betting and casino websites i.e. looking for market leadership in the degen online gambling sphere. How the hell do you think what's his name got blackstone to put up billions of dollars to finance the pokerstars purchase? It's because he had a ten or twenty year business plan where they could maximize profit from pokerstars enormous player base of casual gamblers; which unfortunately had very little to do with the game of poker but more so the profile of said players.

This ship has sailed. The only online hope for the game of poker we all love is for a competitor to come along that caters to poker purists, and those that wish to "climb the ladder" so to speak. Where rake is low and people are allowed to compete against one another. This will not be nearly as profitable an enterprise as what pokerstars is aiming for, but it would be profitable none the less. Unfortunately, poker is within a decade or two of being completely solved by AI bots, and true safeguards against computerized play may be impossible to enforce. It's a tough nut to crack but I'd love to see someone pull it off.

Last edited by TommyTsunami; 08-17-2017 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 08-18-2017, 05:50 AM   #144
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Re: Bloomberg: Poker Site Wants Card Sharks to Fold So the Rest of Us Can Win

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Originally Posted by MeleaB View Post
If Stars were to carry on down this path so that the skill element was all but removed from all of their games, would there be an argument for not letting them into the US market (should the opportunity arise) due to the fact that they no longer offered skill-based poker?
interesting question and this would have some poetic justice for those arguing against Stars mutation of game of poker. Remember though that in the US online gaming is approved and regulated at the state level.

New Jersey, for example, authorized full online casino gaming, including slots. Stars is licensed and operating there. Here they could get a game comprising of a coin flip approved.

Nevada on the other hand authorized only poker (and sports book I think) and did not authrorize other casino games/slots. Stars has yet to get licensed in NV (bad actor clause type issues). It would be pretty funny if and when Stars got over bad actor clause stuff in Nevada, NGCB rules that some elements of their game was no longer poker but more akin to online slot and approved them as a company but did not approve their game (s)

What other states do is anyone's guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyTsunami View Post
Here's the thing... what pokerstars is doing is just plain good business... The value of their business model is their player base. And the most valuable part of that player base are the fun players with disposable income they're willing to lose, period end of story. It's not in anyway the pro player who bases his livelihood on avoiding gambling as much as possible and attempting to extract money from the site... In the article and interview with their CEO they talk about potential mergers with sports betting and casino websites i.e. looking for market leadership in the degen online gambling sphere. How the hell do you think what's his name got blackstone to put up billions of dollars to finance the pokerstars purchase? It's because he had a ten or twenty year business plan where they could maximize profit from pokerstars enormous player base of casual gamblers; which unfortunately had very little to do with the game of poker but more so the profile of said players.

This ship has sailed. The only online hope for the game of poker we all love is for a competitor to come along that caters to poker purists, and those that wish to "climb the ladder" so to speak. Where rake is low and people are allowed to compete against one another. This will not be nearly as profitable an enterprise as what pokerstars is aiming for, but it would be profitable none the less. Unfortunately, poker is within a decade or two of being completely solved by AI bots, and true safeguards against computerized play may be impossible to enforce. It's a tough nut to crack but I'd love to see someone pull it off.
that is well written and all spot on.
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