When people start suggesting that you pay the bubble I make a even better suggestion of they all get together and chip in out of there share and pay the bubble never works out for obv. reasons but is funny to see reactions.

When people ask to pay the bubble I usually tell them I enjoy watching the agony on the face of someone bubbling and refuses. If they really want something for bubbling, the tournament host should just hand out participation ribbons for not cashing.

Hey check it out, there's this thing called variance, and chops/deals/swaps can often allow you to reduce your variance without changing your EV. It's also possible that a chop/deal/swap may increase your EV. Crazy, I know.

I know it's cool to sit there and act like you're a tough guy who "plays for the win", and hey, maybe your financial situation is such that you have no reason to care about the variance involved or your relative EV in the tournaments you play. If so, great, but don't act like anybody who agrees to any kind of deal is automatically some kind of loser.

And no, replying to me with "well if you care about the variance, you shouldn't be playing the tourney" isn't a valid response.

But if you care/worry about variance in tournaments you are playing too high. And that's a valid response.

Whats the opinion on paying out the bubble in sattys considering the payout system/chip accumulation is different

I was in a $550 satty to a 5k event on the bubble and discussions of everyone paying $100 - $150 to the bubble boy from their pockets. Pretty sure there were 8 seats and 9 of us left.

In the end it didnt eventuate, but there was lots of umming and ahhing over amounts before someone just said no deal he doesnt care and doesn want to pay and we kept playing

Just interested to hear peoples opinions. FWIW I didnt bubble

I've known and played tournaments with Barbara for years and believe me she could not care if the rest of the players berated or were mad at her for refusing to pay the bubble. She knows that in these high variance, small buy in events the money is nowhere's near the bubble, it's at the top 3 or 4, so there's no reason to let the bubble boy/girl off easily.

OP, you say that it was only a measly $165 but that's the point. She knows that if she doesn't finish in the top 4 or so, or do a late game chip chop as a big stack then she's not going to make much money anyways so she won't care if she busts on the bubble and only either makes $165 or nothing. As far as bubble strat goes she knows what she's doing.

Someone mentioned that it would be difficult to get 28 players to agree but that's not true. It's only 4 tables of 7. It only takes less than a minute to query all the players.

"..All forms of chops, splits, shares and the rest.."

Aside from reducing variance, once in a while there's a good reason to accept a chop.
The guy really wanted the trophy and said so.
Then says "You can have 1st place money."
hmmmm..... how about 1st place money plus $100.

Snap call. Game over.

But he woulda gone off for more... Oh well. Live and learn.

Unless people get out of line and somehow bully you into making a bad deal, people offering a deal can never be -ev (ignoring lost time in the tourney). It's like insurance in blackjack. You lose no ev from the house offering you insurance, and under certain deck conditions it may be correct to take insurance, generating equity in your favor. There are plenty of phone ICM calculator apps, get one and then you'll be able to see what your ev is based on different payout scenarios. To see a basic model of what you are asking, go to http://www.icmpoker.com/Calculator.aspx and input a 9 player table with various stack sizes paying 8 spots each 10 units. Now run it again with the same stack sizes and 8 of the players getting 9 units, with 9th getting 8 units (taking one unit from each other payout). The big stacks lose a huge amount of equity (they were close to 10 units of equity already and now their cap is 9 units) and the small stacks gain a ton of equity (their equities were under 8 and now they get a minimum of 8 units with a chance at 9).

Yeah, I got $100 extra out of a guy in a chop at my local cardroom because he really wanted the hideous jacket they give you if you win. $100 to buy out my 40% equity in a jacket I never would have worn? Ship it!

why not just say to all the people who want to payout the bubble to pay out $5 of their own pocket, but make it clear your not going to.

(then ensure you bust out first and take their money)

You could be playing for tens of thousands of dollars even if the buyin is <$20 in various online tournaments. Disparaging someone for considering a deal in that spot is just silly

Like I've said multiple times already in this thread, disparaging anyone for considering a deal in any spot is just silly. You can always profit from making a great deal, even when factoring in a large skill edge. People sometimes even manage to get more than first place in a deal, which is obviously +ev even with an infinite skill edge.

I'm not sure why you think your response was different than what I said wasn't valid, but anyway, no, that's not a valid response.

By your logic, I guess I shouldn't play the Sunday Storm because it would make sense from a life-utility standpoint for me to make a deal at the FT if I'm heads up with players I have zero edge against. Think about it.

Also this. I've made a lot of money over the years making deals that were very favorable to my EV at the time. Not agreeing to them because I don't want to be a "pansy" and because I want to "play for the win" would be -EV and when I'm trying to pay my bills through poker, EV is all that matters.

No bc in your scenario the 2players are splitting their total prizes. No matter where they finish the total amount cashed is split down the middle. In my scenario, the two short stacks are agreeing that the next player of the 2 shorties to bust gets half of 3rd money and half of 2nd money. He doesn't get half of 1st money if the surviving short stack goes on to win it. So if the payout are 10k, 6k, 4k. The short stack to bust out first is playing knowing he is at least winning 5K instead of 4K. With the possibility of winning 9K.

The ridiculousness of the OP non-withstanding (and I must say, the absurdity of the situation gets worse when I think about it - Only a $70 buy-in - complaining about the bubble in 28th place, etc), I'm not sure why there are some people who look at deals as a black-white sort of thing.

IMO, anyone who says you should never do something or always do something are usually wrong.

There are some people who say you should never chop in any tourney. I've been down to less than 5BB's and have people offer a chop for several places than I'm currently in for several hundred or thousand dollars more, and I've taken it. I've also refused chops where I have anything more than a paltry stack, and even if I'm borderline, I might consider it based on the financial outcome of the chop. We were once playing in a tourney down to 8 and I was 6th in chips and the chop would have paid out just slightly less than 2nd place (because of the top heavy payout). Not taking that deal would only have been prudent if I thought I had a good probability of reaching 1st. The chop offered was $3K more than what 6th place paid. I can't pass that deal up unless I knew I would go on an absolute tear.

Like most decisions in poker, chops should be looked at as fluid and an opportunity to make a good deal. I've had tables where I was the overwhelming chip leader actually agree to give me first place money and then chop the rest!

Paying the bubble is a bit different. I admit that I'll give into the group in casual and low buy-in games, but when the stakes are higher, I'll refuse if it looks like it will happen. Most of the time there are 2-3 of us that don't want to, so it isn't an issue.

The only rule regarding bubbles that I think should always be followed is once an idea is shot down it should stay dead.

Well why should the bubble be paid? If you pay the bubble, what about the poor guy who goes out 1 before the bubble? He becomes the new bubble so we should probably pay him some money too. But then wait.... what about 30th place? Should he get anything? etc etc etc etc

Just stick to the ****ing original payout plan. What's the problem?