When does JJProdigy get elected to be Chair of the Epic Poker League Ethics Committee?

Hand histories and transfer histories...

I don't know any of the people involved. And frankly I don't care about any of them.

But there is one thing that I don't understand.

Viffer's main claim is that Traheho knew that Perky was being staked for their match and that the backer was watching the match. So basically Traheho was accepting that Perky stole the backer's money.

I don't see any way he could ever prove this.

The betsizing tell doesn't convince me and it's circumstantial evidence at best. E-Mails and chatlogs could be easily faked. And you obv can't trust what Perky would say as a witness.

What am I missing?

"wat? Blitz is friends with Alec, no? This post is a level, sarcasm, or errorneous. Assuming Dan and Alec are still friends, even if this were true, Dan would just simply not post it if anything."

wat no.

Usually if you put together enough circumstantial evidence -- and generally promote the idea that if the accused was innocent, he would post information exonerating himself -- the accused eventually does show up, authoring several self-incriminating posts which help NVG to expose even larger scams than those the culprit was originally accused of.

As far as i read the original thread Traheho admitted to the chip-dumping and to the betsizing tell. So the only real question is did he knew about the backer.

So far I haven't seen any evidence or even circumstantial evidence proving that Traheho knew about the backer.


This is backwards imo. If somebody comes up with serious allegations the burden is on him to prove them. Not on the accused to exonerate himself.

This is another thing I don't understand. If it's so important for Viffer to out Traheho. Why doesn't he just post his proof? And let the community decide if it's damning. It's obvious he won't get his prop bet anyway.

Perhaps. Nevertheless, it has so far proven to be quite the effective strategy.



I forgot to mention the important role that speculation plays in all of this.

Well, it mustve been an extremely uncomfortable situation.

Uh, they're both part of Victory poker and have the same group of friends... Robl, Esfandiari, Rast, etc. Or are you trying to imply Blitz actually has enough integrity to out this info even on a friend of his?

[quote=gr9]

Im pretty sure he already admitted to chipdumping.

His reason seems justified. it was something along the lines of

"Perkey is a nutjob and a very flaky dude. i was willing to accept any means of getting my money, no questions asked"

naive yes. guilty no.

I was in the room, and that's exactly what happened.

This is why he vouched for him? Why not just talk on the phone or over Skype about each other's hands instead of going to the complexity of a sizing tell? Seems to me if FT were to investigate a chip dump a sizing tell would stick out more than if they discussed every hand on the phone and gave the other a reason for acting a certain way in a hand. A sizing tell? - How long did this match go on for?

Seems orchestrated for the benefit of someone watching. Seriously what person with half a brain needs a chip dump to get funds off someone?

I'm kinda naive naturally, but from reading all the 2p2 scam threads I've learnt that 99.9999% someone is accused and I think 'wow this person couldn't handle this situation any worse' they're guilty.

Just sayin

(sounds so obvious anyway, I guess sometimes I just like to give someone the benefit of the doubt for being honest but really dumb)

because the backer was in the room with perky when they were playing

That's what I was implying...

I really am dumbfounded how few people on here knows what actually is going on.

Perky owed Alec 150K, perky found a backer to play Alec. Well the backer ovb wanted to watch his money in play, so Perky and Alec came up with a way to signal each other their hands during play with out the backer knowing. Perky then Dumped 150k to Alec, which means they both were in on it and stealing from the Backer. Viffer has beef cause Alec is on the ethic comittie board.

Now the Arguement is did Perky and Alec agree to the chip dump or did Perky really just lose 150k to Alec which is hard to believe.

Viffer seems to be asking questions to Alec that he already knows the answer too. Funny that Viffer asked if Alec kicked back an amount to Perky after the Dump, which I believe he did. Again I am willing to bet that Alec ends up leaving the Ethic Committie board.

If your criterion for evidence of knowledge in this context requires access to Alec's consciousness then maybe you could be justified with this comment. But this is taking epistemological pedantry to an extreme that would probably make Descartes blush. Let's look at some facts:

- Perky owed a bunch of money

- Perky had transferred money on FTP many, many times before, yet on this occasion he said he couldn't (obviously, he could actually make transfers in the technical sense of having a transfer button), but apparently he didn't explain to Alec why he couldn't. Most people would probably think this was extremely weird at best. Alec apparently didn't even question this sudden 'inability' to transfer.

- Perky has lots of money (to be more precise, his parents have lots of money lol). If his transfer button were broken, he could easily have paid back the debt outside FTP (bank transfer, cheque, a brown bag stuffed with banknotes - you know, all the various standard ways that everybody else on the planet pays back money)

- Perky is a shady degen who doesn't like to pay all his debts. Alec has said this many, many times, and everybody knows this. Despite this, Alec apparently didn't think there might be anything shady about this sudden inability to transfer on FTP or indeed pay the money outside FTP, which, to reiterate, is how most money is moved about in the real world

- Perky's solution to this is to... *deep breath*... CHIP DUMP the debt back to Alec. Now, Alec is on the ethics committee of the EPL. I presume he had some idea about ethics before he took that role on, so I'm guessing he knew that chip dumping is a highly unusual, highly complicated, some might say shady, method of transferring money. We are being asked to believe that Alec just thought, "fair enough, after all if you can't transfer the money to me on FTP - which I'm not questioning despite the fact that you've transferred money on FTP many, many times before, and you can't give me the money outside FTP - which I'm not questioning despite the fact that you are incredibly wealthy (who knows maybe your parents suddenly lost everything on the stock market) - chip dumping is clearly the way forward, let's do it!"

- Rather than talk on the phone during the match, which would be the easiest way to make the chip dump look legitimate, they both agreed upon a bet-sizing tell, the implication of which is that someone was with Perky during the match (which, by some coincidence, is precisely what happened). By this point you'd think that Alec might have entertained a few doubts as to the integrity of what was going on, but no, apparently this is just completely standard in his mind.

- In the HS thread, Alec's patterns of communication in relation to viffer's questions are textbook avoidance and evasion - to be honest after all the 2+2 threads I've read I think I could write a very accurate forum guilt-bot because it's the same pattern every single bloody time lol.


In conclusion, I would say it's bordering on absurd to believe that Alec did not know about the backer. At best, Perky didn't tell him explicitly but Alec had to know that this was what was happening; at worst, Perky told him and Alec was so desperate to get his money back that he went with it anyway.

I had no clue what the hell was going on after 7 pages until this post.

Thanks.

So perky got a backer for a 150k stake WHILE he was in debt 150k to alec?

People who STILL argues that traheho did not know that they stole the backers money are either extreamily dumb and naive or friends with traheo and scumbags themself. I would not trust 100 dollars to this friends of traheho cause they have shown there true colours.

Also...it is very obvious that viffer knows more about this than what he has said so far. When Traheho came to realise this he chosed to back out from the bet and stop answering questions.

I am sure that viffer knows that they stole more than 150 K from the backer and that Traheho made a transfer to Peachy after the scam, leaving a papertrace as proof.

You are missing alot, and my guess is that you DO know traheho.

For an exemple. What is your explination to why traheho all of a sudden chosed to stop answering questions and refused to keep his word about the 50 k bet? This happened after viffer asked some more questions about how much the took from the backer and if traheho made any transaction to peachy afterwards.

Keeping hs rep intact was very important to traheo, he said it several times himself in posts. Is hiding from questons and backing out from the 50 k bet the logical thing to do if he is innocent according to you?

blitzforce, since you are friends with Alec Torelli, can you please make him come to this thread and answer the questions that he is thus avoiding so far?

Well if Perky dumped more than $150k to him and then Traheho transferred some back after the match that would be pretty damning and that's what Viffer is implying happened. Hand histories and transfer histories should be able to prove that one way or the other.

how are we supposed to get transfer history from an online site? :\