I think we should start an email campaign with fulltilt to ask them to remove the KGC license from there list of "accredations" I think at this point anything we can do to reduce the legitimacy of the organization will be to our benefit in the long run as it will hurt their credibility and strengthen our cause.

I think if a few thousand full tilt regulars start emailing FT we could probably have a real impact on this.

Thoughts?

Someone already asked them to clarify their relationship with KGC, and got a nasty e-mail back:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=223756

wow the response email is creepy, WTF

makes you wonder...

might be back to stars for me

This is not an area that I know much about, but who are they going to be licensed by if not Kahnawake? Alderney, the Isle of Man, etc, are not allowed to license for the US. This is why sites end up with multiple licenses.

I admit I get confused about the situation in the US, and I'm not even sure what purpose the Kahnawake licenses serve now. But if the sites need to be licensed for the US, where else can they go for that license? Can Antigua license for the US?

uh oh I plays on Ipokers and theya re affiliated as well...I live 30 minutes from Kahnawake...maybe i should drive up and investigate myself lol

I am certain pokerstars has its server in the Isle of Man which I believe has a good reputation.

pokerstars server on the isle of man is much laggier than KGC based servers for me coming from overseas

tarath - Kahnawake is essentially an ISP, you should not take their license accreditation too seriously. Essentially in order for a site to be served by Kahnawake they must adhere to a loose set of rules set out by this license, Kahnawake is not in the business of being an industry watchdog.

There are no other ISP options besides Kahnawake for many poker sites at this time if they want to serve to North America without a significant lag, hopefully as our industry grows this will change but until then stopping Kahnawake will stop internet poker in the Americas.

There was an interesting podcast from CBC:Search Engine on 5/28 where they go on a tour of Kanawake, I think you would learn a lot about their business by listening - http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/includes/searchengine.xml

wasn't pokerstars affiliated with KGC initially?

yes.

Not sure you are right about Isle Of Man and US players, Ooda:

http://www.pokerstars.co.uk/iom/

If PokerStars is there, I don't see why FTP couldn't move to the IOM on the face of it (unless they don't want to for other reasons)!?

Hmm I actually have worse lag on FT than PS but I admit I am somewhat ignorant here. I will take a look at the podcast, thanks for the link TT.

Also doesn't stars decision to leave KGC seem like a bit of a red flag? Leaving can't be cheap so they must have done it for a reason.

Anyways I will educate myself more before I make any more comments.

I see. I actually thought you had to be licensed to operate, and that the US didn't allow IOM licensees, so that Stars would be committing an offence accepting US customers unless they had a license covering the US. I didn't think IOM licenses did cover the US, based mainly on the fact that Alderney's do not.

I assumed that when Stars' US customers logged in, they would see the Kahnawake license at the bottom of their screen, while everybody else would see the IOM one; similar to what I think happens with FTP. Clearly I am wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.

PokerStars went to Isle Of Man a few years ago, long before AP/UB scandals and prior to their planned and then aborted IPO in 2006:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investi...2&in_page_id=3

As far as I know PokerStars is no longer affiliated with the KGC, although it is still listed (as 'Poker Stars') on the KGC permit holders page at:

http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/

I am told by "friends who have friends" that Stars found another solution that bypasses Kanawake but the other sites don't know how it was done or they would follow suit. These friends do not work at Stars, they work for other companies in the business.

One of the things I learned from the podcast is how they essentially have the direct "pipe" coming into the US from Europe in their backyard, this means its plausable that there is no other ISP in North America that could privide the speed that Kanawake does. The politics of how they got access to the trunk lines are amazing, they essentially used an Eminate Domain policy and tapped into the line without asking permission since the cables were placed on their lands without consultation. Totally sick... this does however show that the Kanawake issue is extremly complex and not easy to avoid.

Trust me, from a technical perspective, that wouldn't work. Well, you could connect to it, but it wouldn't connect you to the internet in a way that would make your servers visible to the rest of the world.

think i read in some thread that ftp is working on moving their business to isle of main

FTP= regulated by the KGC
UB/Ap = regulated by the KGC

FTP = based in Costa rica
UB/AP = based in coasta rica

FTP = decided to walk a legal tightrope by accepting US players
UB/AP = decided to walk a legal tightrope by accepting US players

FTP = bad support
UB/AP = bad support

FTP = largely formed by old school ex players
UB/AP = largely formed by old school ex players

ftp = defensive and secretive (see kgc response)
AP/UB = defensive and secretive


ftp = servers located at kgc
ub/ap = servers located at kgc

Be aware

I've been a content FTP player for a couple years now, but I have to say that my confidence in them is diminished by their touting the KGC as if the licensing was worth a damn. They'd be better off claiming no licensing, then misleading the public into thinking that the KGC actually provides meaningful regulatory oversight.

I'm not ready to switch to Stars, as I've been happy with the way FTP has handled allegations of cheating. But FTP's recent attitude re: the KGC is causing me to question the wisdom of playing there.

Cheers, Carl.

I think it takes a while to get approved by some or the more diligent places like the Isle of Man. In the Bodog thread they said they were tryinig to move their servers out of Canada but the have to wait till they are approved.

FTP is not owned and operated by the criminals who own and operate AP/UB.

They are licensed by the KGC because they need their servers to provide fast games to players in North America.

FTP is guilty of not finding or creating a better solution to bypass the Kahnawakes (which would probably cost 8 - 9 figures) and FTP is guilty of atrocious customer support and a lack of security controls (see the bot issues in the past) but FTP is not guilty of having the same ownership and management that steals from its players like AP/UB.

I believe that this is a fundemental difference that should not be taken lightly. FTP might do some things wrong and they might be shady in that they claim to be overseen by a puppet regulatory body in the KGC but they are not an inherently crooked site like AP/UB.

If you choose not to play on a site associated with the Kahnawakes then good for you. If you choose not to play on a site with terrible customer service then good for you. If you choose not to play on a site because its lack of security controls then good for you.

But please do not choose to avoid FTP because you believe that they are associated with Russ Hamilton, Phil Tom, and Joe Norton because, other than their North American server location, that is not the case

Give me a break. This is a mindless smear campgain.

Disagree, Its a valid point.
Seriously if PokerStars suddenly publicly advertised cash for concierge - it would be a no brainer for a lot of players to make the jump - there are a ton of people that would prefer not to give any of their rake to Kahnawake, but obviously won't punish themselves in order to do so.

Couple of questions:

What about the aspect of ownership? Is it any more clear in the Full Tilt context than in AP's who actually owns the company? Also do AP and FTP not both employ shell companies which have the side effect (benefit?) of masking the true owners? I'm asking this being ignorant of the situation over at Stars but having the impression that the ownership question has been more clear with that site despite the popular mythology that exists surrounding FTP's founding.

By the way I play at FTP but have been kind of struck by some of the similarities between UB and FTP that came up in the UB thread and added to by Ihatelosing.

What Bodog thread? Link?