*NOTE TO MODS* -Also posted in MTT community, but figured there is more traffic in NVG. Feel free to delete the OP in MTT community if need be.

I vaguely recall hearing something about this format, but after googling it and searching on here, found nothing, so I'm not sure where I heard it from, but it works like this:

-Multiple day 1's, re-entry format.
-Any and all stacks that finish day 1 carry on to day 2... so if you finish (for example) 2/5 day 1's, you combine the two stacks and bring them to day 2.

The reason I'm posting this thread is to get any feedback whatsoever. This is a brand new concept to me, and seems to VERY heavily favor the deep pocketed player.

My local cardroom has announced (not full details yet, but I got some inside info) a $150 buyin, $250k gtd version of this format, and as tempting as it is, I could probably only round up ~4 buyins, and there will more than likely be ~10 "day 1's". I say 10 "day 1's" because Fri-Sun will probably have 2 starting flights each day, followed by the following Fri-Sat having 2 more each, and the final day that Sunday (this is a guess but probably pretty close).

I have little to no doubt I'm a +EV tourney player, especially at this stake and specific cardroom, but with this format and my non-existent bankroll, I have doubts as to if it's even close to EV.

Anyone who has heard of this format or has any idea of a way to "even out" the playing field in any way (in regards to the TD implementing tweaks to the format, etc) would be much appreciated. Apparently they are still trying to work out some "kinks" and make it not so heavily in favor of the deep pocketed players, but I'm not sure how that's possible in this format.

Thanks in advance.

How about not playing if you think the format is not profitable or too high variance? Last I heard casinos are not required to offer the games you want. Vote with ur pocket.

I've heard there will be more than 10 day ones.

Honestly it's great and I can't wait to play. I plan on firing all days.

If you are such a +ev player why don't you have the bankroll to play? It's 2 months away. Plenty of time to grind up some money if you really are +ev

I also heard if you make it to day 2 they refund your buy in but I'm not sure how true that is or the specific details if it is true.

seems like there should be a point of diminishing returns at some point before 10 buy ins what with ICM and stuff. Each additional tournament chip earned is worth marginally less than the previous one. Your ROI probably isnt' going to increase by one buy in when you go from 400bb to 500bb on the start of d2.

or maybe it will, what do i know

FWWM: well no crap, I was looking for any input from people who may have played a similar type event, or even possible ideas to lessen the huge advantage of deep pocketed players.

Fish taco: Are you located in the same area as myself and know what I'm talking about? About the (lack of) bankroll, let's just say I've been on a downswing in life as of late (had a baby, lost my job not long after, and life), and I'm turrible with money, so I have actually never had a real "bankroll", but I planned on selling some of myself to afford as many bullets as possible, but if what you say is true about more than 10 starting days, it seems absurd to even attempt playing... So let's say there are ONLY 10 starting days... That's $1500 if only firing one bullet each day. I'm not sure I like the idea of promoting it as a $150 when in fact if you buy in for $150 you have virtually no chance. Sounds like false advertising to me, although one could argue that you should understand the structure before entering (and that would be a very valid point).

Idk man, it's so tempting but seems highly idiotic to play if one can't afford to fire at least one bullet per day, and even then it's not very +EV. The idea that all your stacks can advance with so many starting flights just seems stupid and will almost surely make the day ones a big ******ed ball of monkey **** where people just shove any hand that isn't drawing dead. Day 2 will be interesting with huge stacks, making for a very long day, but as a whole, it just sounds bad.

Shame you can't buy in on day 2 for $1500

Yes I know where you are talking about (DL). We've probably played together before. Anyways I don't think it is absurd to play it if you are on a limited bankroll, the value will be there because you are going to have a lot of people just taking 1 or 2 shots at it that normally don't play tournaments and will play this because it's a 250k gtd for $150.

On the flip side I think there will be people that fire almost everyday trying to get a huge stack. It's also not even GTD that you will make day 2 so just because play 10 days doesn't mean you will have 10 stacks going through. I just think in a tournament like this if you are going to have people playing everyday then there is really no reason not to play just I always take add ons no matter how many chips I have. Now if I bag 5 huge stacks and have 1000bb's I probably won't play other flights.

I don't think it will be bad and I don't think people will play as reckless as you think. I want to advance multiple stacks so playing like and idiot isn't really the way to do that, at least for me. I'm sure we will see 1 million+ starting stacks on day 2 which is not common for tournaments there. Definitely excited to see how it turns out.

I'm interested to see if you get your money back if you make day 2 like I heard. I think it would make sense because most players would probably just turn around and play in another flight if they got their money back. I'm not sure on this but it is something I heard from someone.

Ugh, this completely misses his point and makes you sound insufferable. I'm glad you are financially responsible/stable enough and understand that no +ev player could have downswings longer than two months at LIVE poker. Don't be like that. Agreeing that you like the format because you can buy in to all flights is exactly the point he is trying to raise.

The fact is, tournaments do not care who wins and these gimmicks are just ways of bloating prize pools/rake/fees. A negative byproduct of these gimmicks is that the under-rolled entrants are at an inherent disadvantage.

No I understand his point but he said he is +ev in tournaments at the place he plays and it is 2 months away. I happen to know that they run many smaller stake tournaments twice a day so there is plenty of time to grind up some buy ins. There are also the free rolls every morning that you can win tournament vouchers in.

I just think 2 months away it's silly to say I can only afford X amount of buy ins when there is plenty of time to grind. Take down one $80 tournament and it would equal 7+ buy ins.

You've taken a $150 buy in and made it a $1500 buy in with an option to buy in for less chips at 10% intervals. Giving a good player (who has more money because he is good) more chips and more opportunities to win chips makes the tournament harder for everyone else. You are just further dwindling the chance of an amateur winning, and giving him a concrete reason to why he lost other than luck.

The man speaks the truth.

How have they considered the blind levels and stack sizes on day 2?

Seems like you could run into a situation where someone who runs hot enough could build a stack over the 10 days that would just make things ridiculous.

Maybe a cap on the amount of times you can progress to day 2? So you can play all 10 days if you bust each one, but if you progress to day 2 a second time that would be the last time you could enter a day 1.

It's called an accumulator and I quite like it.

they run this format for the WPT national events in the UK, and its great, its £180+£20, 3 start days, and it gets a huge prizepool

im a big fan of this, it allows the fish to inflate the prizepool, and give you a huge ROI if your in for one or two bullets vs someone in for say 10

From the point of view of a recreational player there appears to be a sporting disadvantage for under-rolled entrants, which is Bad and Wrong (TM) when the main point of tournaments is that they attract people by appearing to be closer to a sporting event than a cash game (which appears to be closer to a table game). Related to this is the fact that for a lot of weaker players it is more attractive to be an "outside shot" in a fair, legit tournament than a "fish" in a cash game. Even though 2p2ers might see those as just different ways to describe playing on a minus -EV basis.

OP claims to be a plus EV, thinking player, so the above paragraph shouldn't worry him (except to the extent that weaker players may be put off). If he can increase the value of his starting stacks in a normal tournament he can do the same in this tournament, and is also plus EV in this tournament, regardless of how many bullets he fires.

The way to think of it is a tournament with hundreds of entrants (i.e. the same as the hundreds of bullets fired), just held in a town where there is a convention of triplets, septuplet, octuplets etc. being held, which is why many of the entrants (bullet firers) have the same physical appearance as each other. Now it is possible that a tournament with hundreds of entrants is too-high variance for OP, but that is a different matter to EV. To extend the metaphor, what brings an extra big EV advantage to OP, who is presumably only going to fire one or two bullets is the special rule that if more than one from the same set of triplets or octuplets (i.e. more than one stack from the same person) reaches day 2, they are forced to go all-in blind against each other till the stacks merge so that only one member from each set of twins actually plays (only one stack is played by each player). Now ICM tells us that when two stacks the same as ours are converted to a zero and a double size stack - the monetary value of our stack increases. I think it might be very plus EV to fire a single bullet and start with a smaller stack on day 2, already close to the money bubble.

Another issue is - what are the blind levels going to be like? The problem with this type of tournament is they often have to be fast so that you actually get finished on days 2/3. That may serve to reduce OP's advantage.

Following on from my first paragraph, the situation in which I think accumulators (that is the normal name for this kind of tournament) make sense is the kind of poker holiday (vacation) tournament which I think some of the minor European online rooms run, where you are staying in a hotel by the beach and you play all three starting days (evenings) and hopefully get at least one stack through to day 2, rather than just busting out during the first level of day 1 of the "poker holiday" and have to argue with the wife about whether you can enter the side events or if it is now holiday time not poker time.

LektorAJ... Here's how I translate your "awesome" post...

You: IF you make day two, multiple "entrants/bullets/people" will be sliced out of the prize pool making you closer to cashing automatically.

So, how do you in all your awesomeness justify removal of players but not removal of chips. ICM has the word CHIPS in it. Get with it man, determining someone's ROI is extremely weighted by wins, having less chips makes you less likely to win, period. Which in turn makes your EV less. If you play to maximize min cashes, you got me there, your min cash rate with one bullet does increase GIVEN the structure allows even that.

Further, the players carrying more chips on are more likely to be better players, decreasing more EV. Don't give me the rich fish will buy 8-10 times argument either, more pros will fire bullets than fish.

As I said earlier, giving better players more chips and more opportunities to win chips is good for them and bad for everyone else. (Except people who like min cashes)

End of Day 1: you have 50k chips and a pro has 50k chips.

Beginning of Day 2: you have 50k chips and same pro has 750k chips.

How is this hard for anyone to conceptualize?

The bulk of my previous post is specifically aimed at OP's situation who is concerned purely about the financial aspect of whether he gets the needed return on his bullet(s).

Having fewer chips means you have less chance to win under ICM, but it is in proportion to the number of chips you have. OP considers himself to have an edge, so his winning chance is (higher than) in the proportion of his bullets to the total number fired, as would be his case in any tournament. I assume you accept that someone with twice your stack has double your chance to win (unless you haven't studied or don't accept ICM at all - if so then we need to start a new thread but I assume OP accepts it), and you have half their chance to win. However you have greater than half their chance to come second, third, etc. because of the way tournaments work. Chips have non-linear value, the first one is worth more than the second one, which is worth more than the third one etc. That's why his sole bullet is at an advantage to bullets that later have to merge with other bullets.

Yes, strong players are likely to fire more bullets, but I think OP considers himself to have the measure of the regs in this particular cardroom so that isn't a decisive factor for him. For a recreational player, it is a factor and a good reason not to play, along with the fact that accumulators breach the ethos of a tournament as a sporting event with level playing field for all players, not just for all bullets.

The text I bolded is a crucial part of why tournaments are so popular with recreational players, and is relevant to about 3 different threads on the front page of NVG (see also reg/fish, letter to Adam Pliska, PCA), and is why I don't support accumulators (except in the poker vacation situation I mentioned where everyone is playing all flights), but should not be so important to OP.

Consider a sit n go series of 10 events, 9 players enter and must play day 1, but they are not required to, but have the option to play any other event. After blind level 15 in events 1-9, play stops and chips are set aside to be added to stacks at the conclusion of blind level 15 during event 10. Let's say 1/3 of players do not move on past level 15 in any event, and also 1/3 of players of equal or greater skill (EV) buy into every event. You are still better than 2/3 of the field but only play day 1 of the series. How is it possible that this is a +EV proposition when level 16 starts on day 10? There is no way he is that much more skilled to over come this enormous discrepancy in chips.

Because EV is measured by comparing prizes won to buy-ins spent.

Where am I going wrong?