Great post!

This is such an important topic that I enjoy seeing this question asked and re-asked periodically.

Good work, johnnythemoss.

Phil Ivey has some thoughts:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...e5&action=view

Chip Reese has thoughts as well:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...e5&action=view

Ronda Rousey has her own thoughts on becoming a champion and striving to live to values. I highly recommend her entertaining and insightful book: My Fight/ Your fight.

Sheesh.. her youthful adventures were just plain fun to read. Her struggles and her views on what it takes to rise to the top transcend her life and her sport.

The Little Book of Talent by Daniel Coyle takes a rigorous look at how champions are made. Some of his conclusions are practical and not what most would think. To some degree Greatness Isn't Born It's Grown and the author does a great job looking at this concept.

I'm sensing some low level sarcasm here. If you're being genuine, thanks
If not, then I'm sure you can understand that it is somewhat difficult to navigate the maze of dozens of forums on this site. Forgive me if I've asked something which has been asked before.

I am 100 percent serious: Great post! Tremendously important topic.

Great players- some of the biggest names, many smart and analytical people, and popular authors have offered opinions in the media and to me personally on this topic.

As the years pass a number have modified or even changed their views. And as modern science is applied..

Hard work and critical thinking.

I think people are overestimating hard work and underestimating natural talent.

The question is not what makes a good player, it's what separates the very best players from those who are merely good/great. Almost anyone can grow up and do nothing but play basketball and work to improve their basketball game and become really good at it. The average person could probably get good enough to dominate most pick up games with enough hard work.

But the average person can never become Lebron James because they are not 6'8" with naturally freakish athletic abilities. Similarly, the average person can never become Daniel Cates. No matter how hard he works, an average person will never become one of the best players. Poker is a game of the mind and so those with high natural cognitive abilities are just going to have a higher ceiling that those without them.

I'm not saying hard work is not important: in fact, it's the best thing to focus on if you want to get better because you can't control your natural talent. And it's definitely a prerequisite to being great, no matter how naturally talented you are.

I just think it is disingenuous to say that if you work hard enough, you are going to become one of the best. Poker is extremely competitive. There are tons of people who have worked their asses off getting better at this game. Way more people have put in that kind of work than have actually risen to the top of the game. Some are world class players but many are mid limit grinders who will never become the best because they have hit their ceiling.

It's because tilt doesn't crush your poker success in tourneys as much as cash.

This is an interesting comment. Why do you say this?

Liability in a tournament is already defined. Liability in cash game is your bankroll/the money on or available to you.

It's basically my personal experience and observation, and I never really realized that until I responded to your post. I have much better success in tourneys (which I know the fields are generally weaker) but in cash... I struggle hard when I tilt. In tourneys extreme aggression is rewarded much more because you can have a much larger stack than your opponents. You can be tilting, luckbox a huge stack, and continue the aggression with immunity (if you are largest stack). No one can stop you really unless they want to take a big marginal risk for their tourney life.

But people in tourneys are less likely to risk their stack in a marginal spot (esp if they have 20+ bb).

Many times I've been over aggro and luck-boxed a stack and cruise deep into a tourney and made some good cashes. In cash, once you push too hard you'll get looked up lighter very quickly. The mistake is waaaay more costly in cash because it's not cumulative. If you are too aggro your opponents can literally just fold until they have a good hand and trap you. Can't do that in tourneys.

Not sure I explained it very clearly but I do think there is something to it. (And yes there a skill element... Cash > tourney)

I think your Chip Reese link is wrong there.

some tilt outwardly and make a fool of themselves. that is different than tilting and making it affect the way you play in a negative fashion.

some will tilt and play way more aggressive than usual. but they are doing it with good hands and some take it as going off and play worst against them and get busted.

Trust funds.

Seems like a sick work ethic is the biggest thing I see among the guys that stick around and grind for years. Seeing how much time and effort they pour into the game both playing and working on their game is just a huge factor that puts them above other players. It seems like if it's pro athelete's guys being best at professional careers or just playing video games it's putting in the work that makes them great.

On one hand :

strong mental game, strong knowledge of poker theory, experience, intelligence, BR mgmt (or having a good staking deal), work ethic / being able to grind like a robot (89.7667674% of pros don't make 6 figures they grind out a living so I suppose that's not champion to some), willing to take shots etc etc etc

On the other hand :

smoke and mirrors

I see your point and believe it has some merit, but ultimately I disagree.

The thing about hitting a ceiling is that if you want it bad enough you won't hit any ceiling. You will keep going and keep improving. Their is more to it than just work on it's own. It's work with clarity and work with little or no frustration. When mid tier people start to plateau they get frustrated and even though they might continue to work just as hard, they don't have the same belief in their work or the same clarity going forward. Their work is as a result not as efficient and their growth affected. Then they fall behind or stay stuck. The lose sight of the goal, often without fully realizing this has happened.

You are right. Thank you.

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...p-t-318-s&fp=1

Phil Ivey has some thoughts:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...e5&action=view

Chip Reese has thoughts as well:

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...p-t-318-s&fp=1


Ronda Rousey has her own thoughts on becoming a champion and striving to live to values. I highly recommend her entertaining and insightful book: My Fight/ Your fight.

Sheesh.. her youthful adventures were just plain fun to read. Her struggles and her views on what it takes to rise to the top transcend her life and her sport.

The Little Book of Talent by Daniel Coyle takes a rigorous look at how champions are made. Some of his conclusions are practical and not what most would think. Greatness Isn't Simply Just Born It's Grown and the author does a great job looking at this concept.

Phil Ivey:


"Once you pass a certain level, particularly in NL play, the fundamental
strategies mean less and less, and winning poker comes down to two
simple questions: "Does he have the hand he's representing" and "Does he
think I have a hand than can beat his hand, or the hand he's
representing."

...

Of course there are GTO-like ways

and glib answers like "better process and content!!"

but when it comes to how to make the big money- especially in an exploitive way

thinking about the things that Phil Ivey and Ray Zee have to say is an excellent idea (smile & wink)

I'm guessing this was questionable if not badly flawed by at latest black friday with respect to online play at meaningful stakes. Today? Heh.

Moxie

For online MTTers. The ability to put insane amounts of volume in and still play B+ overall

Intelligence, aggression, fearlessness, completely calm at all times even under a high amount of pressure, stoicism, the ability to notice small details and makes reads, experience, knowledge, knowing how to balance their ranges and change gears to throw clever opponents off, anti-tilt capability, probably a lot of other stuff I'm not mentioning.

When they come up with sayings that transcend poker generations like "pass the sugar"

Many top poker and chess players can play 20 or even 100 tables at the same time against up to respectable competition. But many of them cant. And they have no better memory of random positions, just of normal positions, making it learning.

Though their visual abilities can often play eayes closed also as they remember all positions, and similar thing can happen at poker with tens of tables. But still, many of then cant play that many tables as their memory cant handle it.

One needs to take the talents from somewhere else but speed. A sense of the situation looks like a better guess and the books and the experience obviously isnt enough. And there is a speed test called IQ, that is a test to find ******s, not intelligence.

Not everyone thinks top fast. It has more to do with understanding.
Study and experience does not cover it all, no matter how much u play and study. Speed should help, but maybe some cover it with depth, intuition. Like younger is faster, older is wiser.

Some just underdtand the game faster, better, and that is why they are better, not just because they know what even i already know. This is why i will stop serious poker after about 2 or 3 years more, after having come to my potential, having studied and played most every game, form and format. Not going to try any further then as i then will know thats the best i can manage, and i know it will not be then only in my lack of knowledge and experience but in my performance that is not and wont get significantly better. Will then play, as things are now online, just mixed and tournaments thats all i play even now, because of more fun, and with some luck, maybe i will find some area from there that fits the best for me, or i just get lucky.