View: Negreanu should look into the PLO rake situation as promised on J.Ingram Podcast - Page 3 - Poker News

This has been going on for years and was raised in this excellent thread in 2013:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...raked-1315665/

gui166 highlighted how bad the rake was and had meetings with Stars about the matter back then. Why has it taken so long for this to be resolved despite the brilliant 2+2 community having provided Stars with overwhelming evidence that the rake is killing the game and hurting not just the players but in the medium-long run also hurting Stars bottom line?!

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04-30-2015 , 10:00 AM

#52

sixfour

should be called sevenfour

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 74,722

so can someone explain why plo has much higher rake than nlhe? is it just a case of plo having bigger pots? if so, i'm struggling to see why it's an inherent problem

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04-30-2015 , 10:01 AM

#53

gausspoker

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 945

amaya don`t give a f...

they just want to profit as fast as possible and move on to the next target, f... long term

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04-30-2015 , 10:06 AM

#54

blopp

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,756

Structural differences. Pot limit, instad of no limit. Also much closer equities pre and postflop, higher VPIP then NLHE believed to be correct playing style.

Just like limit games being different then no limit games.

OP made another thread a while ago on that subject: POKERSTARS: Time to treat PLO and NLHE as different games!

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04-30-2015 , 10:11 AM

#55

UnibetAndrew

Unibet Rep

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,091

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixfour

so can someone explain why plo has much higher rake than nlhe? is it just a case of plo having bigger pots? if so, i'm struggling to see why it's an inherent problem

More people see the flop and the average pot size is higher, though hands are slower, so rake per hour isn't as far apart.

I did some analysis based on a few hundred thousand hands played at our site. From the site's perspective - not the player's - at 5% to €3, PLO25 is raked about 142bb/100 and NL25 is raked about 55bb/100. That's the stake where the difference is biggest.

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04-30-2015 , 10:26 AM

#56

Donkstar

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 167

DNegs, surely it's time to get high-stakes plo players involved in this debate. The likes of Galfond, Isildur and Ivey would surely be on-board with this. More players playing plo in the long-term has got to be good for the poker economy. Surely, with these ridiculous plo rakes we are losing not just amateurs but also potentially winning players who mistakenly believe they are not good enough to ever win at the game!

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04-30-2015 , 03:58 PM

#57

deleted acct

Guest

Posts: n/a

Thanks to Daniel for even bothering to try. They will likely show you the same misleading charts and stats that they showed all the player reps who brought this up, claiming BB/100 isn't a good way to calculate rake taken (yeah right) and that there are enough winners in the games for them to be healthy (find that hard to believe). Don't let them fool you!

Also can some of you please stop the hating ITT? This **** is important.

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04-30-2015 , 04:53 PM

#58

uradoodooface

banned

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,381

Wow, never knew how much PLO raked. Knew it was more then NLHE but god damn!! Really needs to be augmented badly.

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04-30-2015 , 06:53 PM

#59

MikkeD

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,498

Quote:

Originally Posted by scroosko

nice freeroll for dnegs. he either says he tried his best but they decided to keep the inceases or they actually reduce them and he pretends he has an actual say in anything going on at stars

Not posting this to defend DN, but I have the feeling that if he hadn't replied to this thread at all, you would have also jumped in to diss him for that too.

Another kind of freeroll I guess.

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04-30-2015 , 06:59 PM

#60

jungleman

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,044

meh im reluctant to even play plo sngs because the rake is so high... though id have to actually do some math and databasing to see if they should be actually +ev

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04-30-2015 , 07:29 PM

#61

everydaygrind

banned

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 742

Quote:

Originally Posted by jungleman

meh im reluctant to even play plo sngs because the rake is so high... though id have to actually do some math and databasing to see if they should be actually +ev

were you not just playing a high stakes cash game in iceland where they raked $20 per hand?

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04-30-2015 , 08:26 PM

#62

TimStone

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 8,375

Once u r at it please make it possible for nlh players to achieve similar winrates like plo players.
While really good holdem guys these days make 6 or 7bb/100 plo crushers make 2 digits across the board.
Since its all about fairness why not?

And plo is teh new NLH? Lol, did i miss something?

[spoiler]kind rgds from teh TimStone[/spoiler]

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04-30-2015 , 08:35 PM

#63

kingofcool

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 11,043

Dnegs, please see what you can do about seat-scripters. Imagine if the recreationals got a whiff of what's going on with that.

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04-30-2015 , 08:37 PM

#64

david negus

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 612

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingofcool

Dnegs, please see what you can do about seat-scripters. Imagine if the recreationals got a whiff of what's going on with that.

ok so lets talk about it on a public forum!

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04-30-2015 , 08:39 PM

#65

kingofcool

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 11,043

Quote:

Originally Posted by david negus

ok so lets talk about it on a public forum!

I don't have anything to gain by hiding it as i am not one to use it.

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04-30-2015 , 11:19 PM

#66

selrahc

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNegs

No joke, I have a friend who plays in a game in Toronto where the blinds are 10-25 with straddles and restraddles playing PLO and NLH and they rake an average of $500 to $600 A HAND!!! This would seem like an unbeatable game obviously with a rake that big. It's estimated that they rake about $80,000 a week, but the guy who runs the game is a major fish and loses back about $50,000 of the rake weekly LOL.

The game is full of recreational players with too much money, but the massive rake keeps the pros away. Except for a few, who absolutely clean up and make a substantial amount of money from this game.

Other way around. He loses $80,000 but rakes in $50,000 in one session (that's on a good day!). Rakes like $250-$400/hand.

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05-01-2015 , 03:35 AM

#67

DrDanimal

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,502

OP is extremely well made, good info presented well. Nice work.

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05-01-2015 , 10:20 AM

#68

wormmis11

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by selrahc

Other way around. He loses $80,000 but rakes in $50,000 in one session (that's on a good day!). Rakes like $250-$400/hand.

Why the hell wouldn't someone start up a new game in that town then? Does this current game have retired navy seals as security and porn stars as waitresses? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

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05-01-2015 , 11:40 AM

#69

gausspoker

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 945

Quote:

Originally Posted by everydaygrind

were you not just playing a high stakes cash game in iceland where they raked $20 per hand?

lol and you think he was playing against 4 top players and just 1 fish?

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05-01-2015 , 04:31 PM

#70

sumey

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,815

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingofcool

Dnegs, please see what you can do about seat-scripters. Imagine if the recreationals got a whiff of what's going on with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by david negus

ok so lets talk about it on a public forum!

I'm a recreational player and I'd be interested to get a whiff of what's going on.

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05-01-2015 , 05:47 PM

#71

JohnCleese

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,935

Not much to whiff and not much to hide about seating scripts. They are available to buy in the software forum right here.

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05-01-2015 , 10:50 PM

#72

stackedu2

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 47

With or without scripts online poker will always be 5 professionals and 1 rec player/ non specialist.

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05-02-2015 , 02:42 AM

#73

DNegs

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 260

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czar Chasm

Yes, save the DN bashing for other threads where it is more appropriate :-)

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05-02-2015 , 04:59 AM

#74

Auca32

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNegs

Yes, save the DN bashing for other threads where it is more appropriate :-)

Hey Daniel, remember that people who don't like you are much more likely to post about you than people who do like you. Logic of the internet.

On another note, if you're in fact looking into the PLO rake, make sure to look at the husng/SNG rake for PLO as well. Rake is pretty absurd there as well, and there are almost no games running. Stars should at least try to lower the PLO HUSNG/SNG rake for a few weeks. It could potentially make them a lot of money in the long run, and they wouldn't lose much profit if it turned out to be a bad decision.

Last edited by Auca32; 05-02-2015 at 05:05 AM.