really though, look at your created threads it's a bunch of hands you are asking the community for advice on how to improve and I'm sure you replied to help others too. hypocrisy at its finest.

what has done more "damage" twoplustwo or training sites?

seriously most of the ppl complaining:

a) post on forums/read forums
b) wouldn't be where they are (assuming they are professionals, which most are) if it weren't for forums, and likely training sites (forums advice progressed due to training sites so indirect effect is there also)
c) can't come up with an argument why others (who are more or less the same as themselves) shouldn't be able to join the player pool/compete with them, other than it hurts their bottom line and/or means they have to work harder

and many also watch training site videos too

stars and other sites didn't always have high maxes. i remember party and ub were 2 of the biggest sites and they had maxes of 4 and 3 tables respectively.

I agree people aren't going to ignore their own personal gain. But don't say the sites brought all of this on when the players did as well.

And if you're gonna go for your own personal gain that's all well and good- but don't whore yourself out for chicken feed (that often costs you more money in the long run.)

I agree nobody is owed soft games and as I've pointed out in many thread nobody is even owed beatable games.If stars or whoever can make money off of spin and gos and other -ev **** then tough **** for poker players, they would be idiots not to push those thing. But the topic of this thread isn't "are we owed beatable games?" it's why did people whore themselves out for peanuts in making training videos?

blaming these things isn't entitlement-it's fact stating.
saying galfond or whoever shouldn't have made a training site is entitlement.
saying someone is an idiot if they make a good video for a few hundred bucks is also fact stating. someone has every right to make that video, i have zero entitlement of him not making it, but it's pretty stupid for them to do so.i never said someone can't make a video if they choose to- that would be entitlement.

yeah your statements are far more reasonable than others (don't necessarily fully agree, I think training sites alone are less of the problem than you do for example but that's fine). also it's not fact stating, it's clearly your opinion (which you have the right to have). saying something is a fact, even if you do it twice, doesn't make it a fact.

you may not be entitled but I think plenty of people are, including this thread and in the discussions about stars in the past that you mentioned.

there's bigger/similar sized issues such as forums, competition, science/technological advancements and so on and again it's hypocritical of many ppl to complain about these things when they supported/contributed/benefited from/are no different to the competitors entering the industry etc.

using your logic 90% of the people who posted in the thread are idiots for posting valuable strat on 2p2, and they did it for free.

to be clear its not about me defending video makers, it's pointing out the things above amongst others. I absolutely agree some/many video makers got underpaid and/or ev wise shouldn't have made the videos they did/are but that's an issue between the player and the site paying them for the most part. if people say they only care that the video makers did it for too low money, it would have made no difference for them (the complainers) if they got paid well instead to make the same videos.

Virtually every single poker player has talked about or asked for general check up poker hands during some point whether over the phone, text or online.

My last thread is approaching 3 years btw. If I was still actively asking for advice from online small/ mid stakes then you might have a point.

The little advice I give in the live low stakes is to give back a little. But I'm not paid and it's still entirely up to the original poster to sift through the 20+ posts of other advice and decide which is best.

I can't believe you're seriously asking what does more harm. Forum strat like 2p2 or training videos.

As said before forums you have to sift through a bunch of **** / trolls and use your own reasoning and experience to figure out what's best.

Training sites you just pay a fee and get high quality content SPOON FED TO YOU so you can just basically copy cat no thinking required.

You are or were involved in staking, training sites, coaching etc which you will fight tooth and nail to defend considering it's a source of income for you. I don't think there's any amount of reasoning to change your biased stance on the subject.

I agree this site is full of entitled little babies who think stars or whoever owes them a living.I don't think I'm owed a world where these videos don't exist either.These people have every right to make their videos- and I have every right to think it was stupid to do so.

I think other things have hurt the games a lot more than training videos but training videos have hurt the games a lot more than 2p2 . you really can get so much more out of a good hr long video than spending countless hours on here. I also think 2p2 is more likely to bring in some **** players than training sites are but I may be wrong about that.

As far as making no difference to me as to what the video makers got paid- in a way you're right. But if someone is going to contribute to ****ing the games up in a decent way they should at least do so with a big upside. I can understand that logic a lot more and I sure wouldn't think they were stupid for it. But more importantly, if people wouldn't whore themselves out for next to nothing, a lot of these videos would have never been made in the first place.

Again I don't think the training videos were as devastating as other things that hurt online poker, but training videos and the people who made them are the topic at hand.

Of course most players have talked about hands with other people. But most would not have gotten anywhere near the quantity or quality of responses as they would have it it weren't for forums. Even a lot of the 'private' conversations people have on Skype, facebook chat and similar are due to meeting people directly on the forums, or as a result of the communities the forums created. You'll see today that players from smaller poker communities tend to develop slower due to having less people to discuss hands/poker with. These days good content is even rarer on forums.

The fact you haven't posted strat for 3 years is barely, if at all relevant. Especially as you and others seem to blame training videos lifetime. Training sites do have good content filtered, but there is PLENTY of subpar (to say the least) videos/content out there, and if you randomly open some and copy them then chances are you will fail, especially in todays environment. Of course, with the forums you have a better idea where to look/what to watch for quality content..

You simply can not compare the sheer volume of forums to training sites. The registered members (not to mention lurkers) is huge BECAUSE it is free. The fact you weren't paid doesn't help your case at all - why would it? "Oh I helped destroy the games too, but instead of getting paid peanuts, I got paid nothing!"
The success of training sites are very correlated to the forums, people discuss the value of them on here and other forums all the time. Search a couple minutes, it's constantly and repeatedly mentioned as way to improve. FAQs, PG&C threads, wells, etc. Training sites are one of the most frequently mentioned methods of improvements and this word of mouth is about as strong advertising as you can get.

Peoplo who use/post on forums and watch training sites and attack people who either made training sites, videos, or similar are just hypocritical, period. That doesn't change the fact these things were harmful to the profitability of poker. But things like competition (with literally a whole world of people willing to compete), science and technological improvements mean these things at most delayed the inevitable. And again, it's especially hypocritical considering the vast majority of members complaining would not be in the position they are today if it weren't for training sites/forums. As well as the fact that all potential competitors/people who improve are literally just people like themselves, who found poker and desired to play as a souce of income.

As I said already, I have ZERO need to defend myself to anyone, let alone you. What people think in this thread will have literally zero influence on my earning or career potentials. You can repeat this as your only argument which appears to have any validity but as I said I argue for cases which are the opposite of the beneficial to me too since I am overall pretty rational whether you believe (or care to admit) it or not.

Borg - we are on a similar page. that being said, whilst it's true you can get more content condensed in a few videos, remember that the amount of people who view threads on 2p2 is very large compared to people who choose to pay for training site subs.. and that training sites are very largely big due to forums. and that years ago, the forums had much higher average quality of content (content vs. what was known in general about the game) since these days people are understandably more hesitant to share good content - ironically because they realised that it makes the games tougher.

at the end of the day anyone has the 'right' to say games got tougher because of coaching/staking/forums/training site CEOS/training site video makers/poker books/software etc. my advice to people (including myself!) is to spend more time grinding/working on game etc and making some money whilst the opportunity is still there. whatever the reason the games decline in profitability (amaya stars, training sites, forums, math/computer science), fact is they will.

The problem is that people underestimate how bad fish has to be for the table to be profitable for regs.
Say you play ipoker/party/microgaming etc. it is not uncommon for the poker room to take 50bb/100 rake from the entire table. Someone has to lose it. The games can't and shouldn't run around like 20/5 or 25/10 fish because he/she is not losing enough for the 5 other players to overcome the rake.

Thats way arguments from people like Joe Tall are completely ******ed. Would guess that less than 1% of former DC subscribers are bad enough to be a mark unless you play mid+ where rake isn't a factor anymore.

Same goes for you OMGCLayDol. I have a huge respect to you and used to watch your vids myself back in the days on leggopoker. However Your perspective is flawed becuase you used to play midstakes and being long time SNE (before you switched to MTT? I guess). So your effective rake used to be fraction of what most of us pay.

We have this problem already in PLO small stakes where almost no one wins prerakeback. There has to be a huge skill gap if you want to profit given how high the rake is. And poliferation of training content makes it more and more difficult.
On top of that sites increase the rake more and more either by increasing CAP/% or by cutting rewards (P*,888 lately)

I think chances are Joe is right that the average subcriber (especially in the DC days) are significantly worse than most people think, but I don't think anywhere near to the point where anyone can reasonably argue that training sites don't have a clear negative effect on the economy. All I am saying is that I don't see how anyone can reasonably hate on that. There are so many points of discussion (admittingly for both sides) that it's really hard to put it in a few paragraphs but I mentioned a lot of points throughout the thread.

It would make sense if some of the old school guys who solved poker themselves, barely shared any information at all were annoyed, but most of the people in the thread have gotten where they are due to people sharing information on forums, as well as from watching training sites (or talking to people who have learnt from training sites too). I'll also say this again, if no one watched training videos, there wouldn't be any.

If the original winners of sngs who played by their feeling were to say "man screw sng wizard, it killed the games", or the original winners of hu sngs were to say 'man, screw husng.com, it killed the games' it won't be more reasonable. But only that they have the right to state what made their games tougher, not that the people 'responsible' necessary did anything wrong. Instead we have people who mostly didn't do anything for the advancements of poker theory and software, who instead benefited from it (and likely wouldn't be winning/pro players if it weren't for it), and now bite the hand that fed them.

Kpt I don't disagree with most of what you say, but this is largely an issue with the providers, and Stars having a near monopoly etc. Someone did say we can't do much about Stars making these changes, but it's for sure true that over the years, whilst players got better they also made effective rake higher (especially last year). I absolutely realise that rake is very high in many games. It's at the point where a lot of games, even smaller stakes are really tough to beat and this has created a barrier of entry in some games such as PLO as you mentioned. I am aware. Trust me I know it's not easy to beat the rake. I also talk to and deal with many horses/students/friends who aren't SNE, as well as having played as non SNE myself - and next year everyone on Stars will be capped at 30%. I just don't think the right approach is to say that the rake is too high, and because of training sites we can't beat the rake - therefore it's the training sites fault (alone).

I think blaming training sites is an overreaction to problems which suck, but are due to many factors. Even if I never made training videos, I would think it would be quite hypocritical of me to come into this thread and say

"Man, training sites made the games so tough"

When I:

Only became a winning player in the first place because I came on 2p2, posted/read strategy here, learnt through some coaches/stables, watched training site videos etc.

As I said, if you are someone who figured out a lot of stuff on your own, didn't share that, it makes more sense to be annoyed about how your self-made style no longer wins in a GTO-based environment/people got better, but even then - times change.

Make no mistake, I think training sites obviously made the games much tougher. But so did many other things, and raising pitchforks at the training sites (or any other factors alone, such as software developers) is hypocritical and won't achieve anything. It's not like I 'want' to be the unpopular opinion here, I just really think a lot of people are being a bit close-minded and I don't blame them.. there is some mob mentality factor here.

If the original winners of sngs who played by their feeling were to say "man screw sng wizard, it killed the games", or the original winners of hu sngs were to say 'man, screw husng.com, it killed the games' it would be more reasonable.

too late to edit but typo

agreed.

Your apathy towards the poker situation and stance of downplaying the negative effect of training sites is incredible.

99% of the guys who are or were involved with training sites, stables, coaching etc share this stance because they don't want to viewed as the *******s who were a major contributor in ****ing things (and continue to do so)

Everyone knows now that yeah you are involved with the above and that's why this is the stance you take. That's why you've said in many replies itt that you don't care / don't have a reason to defend yourself but then you go on with a long winded post trying to defend yourself and everyone else who runs poker training sites, stables etc.

I have nothing else to add to what has already been mentioned before by myself or other posters itt.

Again, I hope you don't take this apathetic,
"oh no problems too big I'm not responsible for it all who cares anyways?!" approach to more concerning problems in real life.

Gl

you act like it is a catastrophe that games are getting tougher. similar to how you think i understate the situation, i think you overrate it. other poker players will make less money, but others will make more too (nw comers) and what is actually incredible is the massive hypocrisy by people like you. people who are literally only in the position they are in because of everything they are criticising! then hating/fearing newcomers who they once were themselves.

we are obviously not going to agree on this. and whilst i said why my coaching history isn't the reason behind my rationale (obvious if you actually read my posts instead of just think 'derp he must be wrong cause hes a coach') i can understand why you think i am bias and an unreliable source.

cya gl

Siculamente - surely you should think training sites are good though. As far as I can see they are mostly people who learned when there was good strategy on 2p2, who later left the community and are now charging the next generation to learn what they learnt for free themselves - so it's about restriction of information rather than giving it out.

I like it in the podcasts where they always say how great it is to be in their paid training site forums/groups rather than on 2p2 strategy forums where they say everyone is horrible to each other - which doesn't match my experience in the MTTSNG subforum at all - they obviously don't want people to come here and see what's available for free.

You do chat a load of **** dude. Online poker is a dying industry and the gap between new players and current regs is bigger than it ever has been. Newcomers making more money? That hasn't been true for at least 5 years now. I see why you would say that though - you're a coach who needs $$$, and you require suckers to believe that the dream is still alive.

i make a few videos now and then, + barely coached at all in the last few years.. lol about fooling ppl to believe the dream is alive. i personally know many people who are doing fine or very well in poker and close to none are complaining about training sites or similar, instead they actually grind and work hard. take off your tin foil hate mate

there are new comers who make money and some who do very well. you have to work harder than before but in most cases the work/investment vs. payoff is very good to great compared to alternatives as has been discussed in the thread including by people who aren't training site affiliated.

you can stop saying/feeling like you have been wronged. i was happy to reason with you but this is just absurd, absolutely laughable and sad that you blame me for the problems you have of poker getting tougher. (whilst ignoring plenty of relevant points). i honestly feel sorry for you if you have nothing better to do than sit there, think about how you should be earning a lot of money, but aren't, because of "training site scums"

its one thing to generally discuss this topic but is that -really- how you think?? never mind all the other countless, undeniable factors why poker is getting tougher

no one is willing to admit that forums were just as big of a catalyst, if not greater. they want to blame someone for this 'great problem/epidemic we are experiencing', but not accept any responsibility. obv.

if it weren't for 2p2 and other forums, the games would be way less advanced and reggy compared to what they are today. but most of the people in this thread wouldn't be poker players (esp professionals) either.

Since u beating a dead horse over and over again: THE PAST DOESNT MATTER. IT ABSOLUTELY DORS NOT MATTER HOW WE ARRIVED WHERE WE ARE NOW.

QUOTE:
I probably wouldve never really got started w/o supersystem or harrington. But thats the past. It absolutely doesnt matter one bit (completely irrelevant how hypocritical it might be).
We all here now at point X, we all want to make money, we all want to make a living at this game and we currently are. So instead of thinking about the past people rather should think about what happens in future IF WE RECRUIT AND EDUCATE MORE AND MORE REGS??

except everyone is talking about what the training sites DID etc. you are maybe the only one in the thread who talked about something current (criticising solvers education and so on). i am against educating solvers and wouldn't be interested in making videos on them even if i got paid more. i would have my price though, just like 99% of people in this thread. (if you offered enough, almost every single person in this thread would make videos on everything they know.) you are contributing to the education by talking about these things and implying they are valuable fwiw, for sure more the 'contribution' you will make in reducing coaches efforts..

also the past does matter, as people are being hypocrites for criticizing educaters when they posted strat themselves. unless they acknowledge and apologise for what they did too.

and you spelt teh wrong multiple times mate

it's harder to climp up stakes than it used to be but saying newcomers aren't making money is so wrong

I am reminded of the whole baby boomers vs generation y debate. The prior generation got to get fat off the system, then when the system has been corrupted, gotta blame the next group of people coming in.

The past doesnt matter, only the future!

Except when I am living in the sweet moment of the past I guess.

I haven't noticed any discussion about the potential strategic advantage of making videos that have the effect of bouncing ideas off of a bunch of serious poker players.

Imagine a particularly smart student watches a poker video and says, "I notice that in spot x you do y... why not do z?" Through that feedback mechanism video makers are getting better and finding leaks in their own strategies as well.

I think we're just dealing with the natural aftermath of the poker boom, which flooded the poker market with weak recs, leading to a steady supply of fish. Now the fish population has returned to normal and a bunch of sharks are starving. Seems like a typical predator-prey relationship in nature. Eventually some of the weaker sharks will die off and stop playing for a living, or go down in stakes and make due with a lower winrate.

Could be true for cash games but MTTs are much different IMO. It's pretty easy to take someone from -ev to + ev, probably could happen in less than 10 hours of vids.

I wasn't making an analogy. I think poker is its own thing and very different from most other things, especially other professions.

I was (a bit incoherently in hindsight) just trying to communicate that I find the idea of being opposed to knowledge-sharing to be silly, no matter what the subject.

Mainly I think it's silly to be upset about people learning what is after all just a game. You can make money at it, but it's still just a game. There are professional video-game players and professional Go players; should they be upset that people are constantly improving at these things? In my opinion, it's all very silly to get upset about. If you think you have some secret knowledge that you don't want to get out, it's all well and good to not reveal it, but to be upset at others for revealing what they know, I just don't get that...