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Old 07-12-2013, 12:47 AM   #1
Barth
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Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Hello 2+2, my name is Barth Melius, and this is my first post here.

On Monday, July 8th, I played Day 1C of the 2013 WSOP main event. Shortly before the final level of the day, I was moved to a table in the Amazon room and seated in the 9 seat next to Doc Sands, who was in seat 8. A man seated to Doc's right in the 7 seat had his suitcase packed up and sitting next to his chair. Jokingly, I asked Doc how he hadn't busted the guy who was already packed up and ready to go. Doc tells me the man in the 7 seat was informed that his father passed away during the 2nd level of the day, and that he is leaving after day 1 no matter what to go be with his family. Doc had apparently Tweeted about the man and his situation earlier in the day. I felt like an *******, and offered my condolences to the man. He was clearly distraught, as his first WSOP main event experience had obviously been ruined.

The floor then announced that we would play 4 more hands to close out day 1C. We were all talking, and the man clearly had developed a table friendship with Doc. After saying he would not be back for Day 2, or any subsequent day, the man told Doc, "If I could give my chips to anyone, I'd love to give them to you." Doc then thanked the man. Then, unsolicited, Doc told the man that he felt so bad for him and his family, and he would like to give him a 1% freeroll on whatever he cashed for in the main event. He told the man he could find and contact him via Twitter. Upon hearing this exchange, I chime in and tell the man that if he had a charity that his dad liked, I would give 1% of anything I cashed for to that charity as well.

The second to last hand of the night was dealt out. The man in the 7 seat was first to act under the gun, and he threw some chips in the middle for a raise. After his long tank and pose, Doc slowly dropped in a call.

They were heads up to a rainbow flop of K-Q-J.The old man tossed out a bet, and Doc stayed in his tank pose. The man looked at Doc and raised his eyebrows and hand as if to say it's on you. Doc slowly dropped in a call. The man turned towards Doc, and said to him, “All you have to do is raise, If you raise I fold." The turn was a complete brick, I don't remember the exact card. The old man again tossed out a bet, this time somewhere around 8k or so(again, I don't recall the exact amount), with about 18k behind. Doc went into the tank again for quite a while.

While Doc was tanking, the man in seat 7 peeled his cards up revealing the 53dd, making them clearly visible not just to Doc, but also to me in the 9 seat. Doc continued to tank, then my jaw dropped stare catches his eye and he looked at me. Knowing I am aware of what was going on, Doc turned to the man and said, “Sir, I just want you to know before I act, I saw your hand.” The dealer figured out what had happened, called the floor over, and after explaining to the floor that he had seen the man's hand, the floor ruled that since it was a heads up pot, then the action stood and they needed to finish the hand. The floor then walked away, and after a little more tanking Doc announced that he was all in. The man in seat 7 snap called Doc's shove and both of their hands were tabled.
Doc: A7o
Seat 7: 5d3d

There was not a diamond draw on the board. The man snap called it off with 5-high, no pair and no draw. Doc was clearly shocked to be called by the man and to have to turn his hand over. The old man seemed clueless as to how bad it looked to turn over a 5-high snap call. The dealer tapped the table, burned and turned over the river card, and it was a 5.

The old man crippled Doc with a rivered pair of 5’s, leaving Doc with about 3,000 in chips.
Doc was stunned, stared at the board with his jaw dropped. The old man apologized profusely over and over again, saying he didn’t want that to happen.

I wasn’t sure if I had a responsibility to report the situation. It seemed obvious to me that the man had attempted to dump his chips to Doc, but it had obviously backfired. The last hand was dealt out and completed, and we bagged up for the night. I immediately went to the table next to ours to grab a friend and respected professional to ask his advice. We also spoke to several other players with solid reputations in the poker community, and there seemed to be a split opinion on what if anything needed to be done. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just telling my side of the story.

Last edited by Professionalpoker; 07-12-2013 at 03:41 AM. Reason: paragraphs
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:57 AM   #2
mjcace
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hmm to Docs credit he was transparent about seeing the hand. Seems like the floor should have stayed to watch the hand finish. It woulda also made sense for someone to notify the floor who was making the ruling about the rare situation wrt the guys father and him wanting to donate his chips.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:58 AM   #3
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Hmm pretty interesting, definitely don't think Doc had malicious intent himself..
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:01 AM   #4
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Umm wow
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:01 AM   #5
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Sands acted HONARBLY, no foul
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:07 AM   #6
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

it had to happen that way...Tourny dir rule #1 comes to mind and i would say in this instance, only, i would say it was ok. poor doc , rvr 5 it had to be,justice is served by a highr power is what it proves.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:11 AM   #7
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

now poker players call everything sick, but that's sick
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:30 AM   #8
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Reminds me of what happened to drew mcilvain at Tunica main event in 2012, but he win the hand and got kicked out.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:35 AM   #9
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

The poor guy didn't realize he should have left one chip behind in order to be able to fold to shove.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:36 AM   #10
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

This is gold. Somehow.. Lol karma is a bitchh
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:37 AM   #11
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

So why did Sands decide to flat A7o UTG+1 Pre? Anything to do with "If I could give anyone my chips I'd give them to you"?
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:43 AM   #12
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Yeah I mean he obviously thought the guy would be on ATC, also even if the guy said I would donate to you I don't really know if there's anything wrong with him taking advantage of that since it's been discussed pretty openly and no one is trying to hide anything (I could be wrong, like I said I don't know) - plus if there is someone should have complained to a TD or something much earlier..
Like if two guys are going at each other, "I'm going to bluff you hard and show so you feel owned" it's obviously different because it doesn't imply collusion but still will affect the ranges played.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:44 AM   #13
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlino View Post
The poor guy didn't realize he should have left one chip behind in order to be able to fold to shove.
That would have been significantly worse I think..

Also the fact Doc said blatantly "I saw your cards etc" knowing a ruling could have been made to void the hand/s or w/e says something too.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:47 AM   #14
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Holy ****.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:48 AM   #15
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

From Day 2C Pokernews:


It seems to happen at least once each year — a player who survives to continue in the marathon that is the World Series of Poker Main Event not making it back to continue to play a subsequent day.

We mentioned earlier how Rajendra "Ray" Ajmani had made it through Day 1c having nearly doubled the starting stack to end the day with 58,850, but had not returned for today's Day 2c. His seat remains empty, and after four-and-a-half levels' worth of blinds and antes have been taken from it, his stack is now at 4,400 and will not last through Level 10.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:12 AM   #16
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

He sounds like an amateur, probably isn't aware how bad what he did was.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:44 AM   #17
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader View Post
He sounds like an amateur, probably isn't aware how bad what he did was.
Ty Captain Obvious.

"All you have to do is raise, If you raise I fold."

Clearly only an amateur would say such a thing.

OP this is pretty incredible.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:10 AM   #18
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Maybe I'm just a huge nit but sounds like Doc didn't say anything before the dump to discourage it. Hard to tell from the OP if Doc said "I appreciate the sentiment, but you def can't chip dump to me" when amateur said he'd like to dump, or if he said "cool thx. btw here's 1%"
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:05 AM   #19
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

I mean, I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything malicious here, but had I personally been in Doc Sands situation:

As soon as the guy said "if I could give my chips to anyone, I'd love for it to be you", I would have politely, yet very CLEARLY informed him that purposely dumping chips to him is against the rules AND frowned upon.

Beyond that, play poker. If he knows the guy is playing literally ATC, his line seems optimal and he should absolutely try to get his chips. If he doesn't, someone else will and I'm sure Doc Sands being Doc Sands doesn't pass on many spots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bones View Post
Maybe I'm just a huge nit but sounds like Doc didn't say anything before the dump to discourage it. Hard to tell from the OP if Doc said "I appreciate the sentiment, but you def can't chip dump to me" when amateur said he'd like to dump, or if he said "cool thx. btw here's 1%"
Yea, this.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:16 AM   #20
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Craziest thing I've ever heard
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:39 AM   #21
Alan C. Lawhon
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

I'm no "rules expert" but it seems to me that when the floor came over to the table, the dealer (with the aid of some of the players) should have done a better job of explaining the situation and exactly what was going on. The impression I get from reading the OP is that the floor manager who made the ruling didn't have a full understanding as to exactly what was going on and made a hasty decision. (The fact that the floor manager quickly left the table after making his ruling tends to reinforce this.) If the floor manager had ruled the hand dead, Doc Sands might still be in the tournament. The fact that a 5 came on the river is karma.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:48 AM   #22
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elusively View Post
I mean, I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything malicious here, but had I personally been in Doc Sands situation:

As soon as the guy said "if I could give my chips to anyone, I'd love for it to be you", I would have politely, yet very CLEARLY informed him that purposely dumping chips to him is against the rules AND frowned upon.
Doc should have done that at a minimum. The poker gods must have been thinking the same thing ...

Last edited by Alan C. Lawhon; 07-12-2013 at 04:48 AM. Reason: Minor edit.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:10 AM   #23
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

seems really scummy on the part of the guy who's dad died. I don't care what he was going through dumping chips is dumping chips. Sands clearly took advantage of the situation... that is a super shady story for sure. def glad someone stepped up and posted it.

doc had ace high on the hand?? flatted utg 1 with a7o? Seems beyond fishy. Wow. and +1 to what elusively said. To say he'd "love to lose his chips" to the guy and then this happens... can't WAIT to hear sands' explanation for this.

Last edited by Kramerica; 07-12-2013 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:13 AM   #24
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

First and foremost... I feel horribly for the guy that lost his father during Day 1 of the main event. That's an awful day no matter what, but to have it happen on such an important day of your life makes it so much worse. Kudos to the guy for recognizing that you have to just walk away and go be with your family.

Second... We should really hear from Doc on this so he can confirm, deny, or correct the story. It certainly sounds legit, but we should get his version of how this went down.

David takes the game very seriously and has always been one to make sure all rules are being followed to a T. He won't hesitate to bring up violations, even minor ones, to the dealer or tournament director if necessary.

So if this story is true, then it surprises me that he didn't nip this in the bud right away. He should've told the guy to play his cards however he wanted but not to attempt to deliver his chips to any specific player at the table. Although temptation would be strong if put in that spot, I would like to think I would've told the poor guy to play out the night the best he possibly can, building as big a stack as possible. Then at the end of the night to call over a tournament director and to set his entire stack of chips on the floor, putting them out of play (explaining why he's doing this, of course). That way no player(s) would gain an unfair advantage because of his departure from the event.

The chip dumper obviously made a very bad decision, but he should be forgiven considering the mental state he must've been in. Plus it was his first Main so he may not even understand what collusion is and the gravity of what he tried to do.

It is funny how it backfired, though. Obviously Sands figured the guy would fold as promised, but the dumper must've assumed he was drawing dead, which is why he changed the plan and called off with 5 high. Awesome finish (once again... if this is all true).
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:14 AM   #25
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Re: Thoughts on this Doc Sands hand from 2013 WSOP Main Event?

This is possibly the most fascinating thing I have ever read on 2p2. I have no idea what to think.
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