Phil Ivey getting sued - By Borgata - Page 2 - Poker News

That is not accurate. All cards are equal, but not 100% symmetric, and Ivey gets the edge by requesting "lucky" cards to be turned 180° and the deck being reused.

erm

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04-11-2014 , 05:48 PM

#27

franxic

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Na, all cards look equal, but turned cards are identifiable because they are not 100% symmetric. No rocket science, amirite?

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04-11-2014 , 05:50 PM

#28

sins

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Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 373

gotcha. well in that case the casino pretty much deserved it jfc

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04-11-2014 , 05:51 PM

#29

ZenForest

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Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

Na, all cards look equal, but turned cards are identifiable because they are not 100% symmetric. No rocket science, amirite?

lol....all the cards are not the same.....that's why edge sorting works....

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04-11-2014 , 05:52 PM

#30

Acesfullofgarbage

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Some cards are more equal than others.

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04-11-2014 , 05:54 PM

#31

franxic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenForest

lol....all the cards are not the same.....that's why edge sorting works....

No, that's why edge sorting works if all cards are the same:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The4thFilm

Daily Mail is the nuts

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The first time that Kelly identified a key card, she told the dealer that it was a 'good' card which she wanted the dealer to rotate in the opposite direction to all the other cards and the dealer complied with the request.

‘In this way, the long edges of the key card became distinguishable from those of the other cards.’

That is why Ivey requested "lucky" cards be turned, which he wouldn't need if some cards were indeed different.

Last edited by franxic; 04-11-2014 at 06:01 PM.

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04-11-2014 , 05:55 PM

#32

sins

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 373

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenForest

lol....all the cards are not the same.....that's why edge sorting works....

imagine if all the cards had the letter A on them. now if u flipped one of them upside down would that make it indifferent?

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04-11-2014 , 06:03 PM

#33

ZenForest

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Decks susceptible to edge sorting typically have printing and cutting flaws that lead to a lack of uniformity which can be used to identify cards.

Players can then manipulate some dealers into rotating key cards in order to make the markings more visible.

This technique is known as “edge sorting.”

The cards have subtle differences in them, players use those differences to identify card values, and play accordingly.

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04-11-2014 , 06:07 PM

#34

ZenForest

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sins

imagine if all the cards had the letter A on them. now if u flipped one of them upside down would that make it indifferent?

If all the A cards had full diamond patterns on the edge, but all the 9's had the diamond cut in 1/2 at the edge.....then the patterns on the backs of the cards would be "different" or "not the same" or not "100% symmetrical"

And that flaw is what the edge sorting advantage player looks for.

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04-11-2014 , 06:08 PM

#35

franxic

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Jep, "printing and cutting flaws" means, the cards are not 100% symmetric, which makes them distuingishable from the rest of the deck when turned.

Whatever, understand it or not, but that is why cards are rotated in the first place. I'm done explaining.

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04-11-2014 , 06:09 PM

#36

ZenForest

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Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

yea, in other words the cards(patterns) are "different"

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04-11-2014 , 06:14 PM

#37

sins

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 373

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenForest

Alright now this is getting comical, I didnt mean aces I literally meant if the back of card had the letter A written on it(opposed to diamond patterns or w.e). -thats my fault for picking the letter A

edit: alright lets change it to the letter M, if u took 4 cards with the letter M on it and flipped one of them upside down it would look something like this...

M M W M

do you see now?

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04-11-2014 , 06:18 PM

#38

The Camel

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Ummm, what about live poker?

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04-11-2014 , 06:20 PM

#39

franxic

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They are not.. obviously I was wrong with "no rocket science". Even 100% equally looking cards are distuingishable, if they are not 100% symmetric, and some of them are rotated. They do not look differently at all, but the lack in symmetry can be exploited.

That is what happened.

Have a nice day, Sir.

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04-11-2014 , 06:22 PM

#40

ZenForest

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Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by sins

Alright now this is getting comical, I didnt mean aces I literally meant if the back of card had the letter A written on it(opposed to diamond patterns or w.e).

All cards in a deck or shoe should have the SAME pattern on the back.

Weather it's an A, or a pattern of Diamonds.

If in your example, all cards had an A in the exact middle of the card, with no other patterns, it would be impossible to edge sort. (just as if the Diamond Patterns where cut perfectly, and the same on all cards)

But if with all the Kings, this A was slightly off center, then you could apply the same "edge sorting" technique.

It's typically due to a printing or cutting flaw, that makes the backs of certain cards different and "identifiable" to observant players.

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04-11-2014 , 06:24 PM

#41

ZenForest

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Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

lol

If they are not all 100% symmetric, they are different.
If they are "distuingishable" then they are different.
Even tho they "look the same", they are different.
If they were not different, a player could not take advantage of edge sorting.

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04-11-2014 , 06:25 PM

#42

sins

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 373

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenForest

bro you just qouted only half my post

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04-11-2014 , 06:25 PM

#43

franxic

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Now what happens if you rotate some of the absolutely equally looking cards with absolutely identic A's exactly in the center of the cards? Would you be able to distinguish the rotated A's from the unrotated?

Why is that? Because A's are not symmetric?

Right.

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04-11-2014 , 06:25 PM

#44

ZenForest

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sins

bro you just qouted only half my post

what don't you understand ?

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04-11-2014 , 06:27 PM

#45

sins

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 373

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenForest

what don't you understand ?

M M W M

Can you spot the upside down M?

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04-11-2014 , 06:30 PM

#46

The Camel

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Is Borgata still owned by MGM?

If so, will he be barred from Bellagio, Aria and the rest in Vegas?

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04-11-2014 , 06:31 PM

#47

ZenForest

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Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

Now what happens if you rotate some of the absolutely equally looking cards with an A exactly in the center of the cards? Would you be able to distinguish the rotated A's from the unrotated?

Yes, you would still be able to distinguish....but an edge sorter wouldn't do that.

Rotating key cards just makes the markings more visible for future deals

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04-11-2014 , 06:33 PM

#48

Cashcid Linc

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Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3,559

such a boss

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04-11-2014 , 06:39 PM

#49

sins

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 373

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenForest

Yes, you would still be able to distinguish....but an edge sorter wouldn't do that.

Rotating key cards just makes the markings more visible for future deals

A A ∀ A

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04-11-2014 , 06:41 PM

#50

ZenForest

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Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by sins

M M W M

Can you spot the upside down M?

Yes.

And the 1st M is the flawed card.

You see.....on the left edge of the 1st M, the diamond pattern is cut in half. On it's right edge.....its a full diamond. That means the card is a nine in this deck.

On the other cards, the edges are all similar. They are different than the 1st card.

(or perhaps the 1st M is slightly off center to use your A analogy).....but the "upside down W is perfectly centered....as are the right side up W's (you call them M's on the right)

It's just a printing/cutting error by the manufacturer.

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