Staked is staked. The whole no need to put up a roll is nice, but once you get to a long enough duration of the agreement, it's really just a difference of perception. The swings affect you in exactly the same manner, financially - it's just that your bank account is updated less frequently to reflect that.

Yeah I get that it's nice to only ever get money rolling in, or worst case make nothing. But you could set up the exact same scheme for yourself, keeping your roll on a separate acct. Whether you get 50% or 70% or 99%, it doesn't matter because the swings are the same. Obv the no putting up your own roll benefit is nice, but as you put in more hours as a stakee, you will eventually hit a point where it would have been a better idea to just grind it up on your own. I haven't done the math, but I would be very surprised if it took more than 6 months or so to reach that point, with the exception perhaps of my extreme 99% example. Still, EVENTUALLY you'd end up behind, relatively.

With a perpetual staking deal, the amount of risk you are offloading is infinitesimal, because it only covers the risk of going broke in the beginning, and you can't move up indefinitely so the window of time where you gain significantly from the pooled BR management is limited.

If we're not taking into account the hit and run strategy which necessitates a fixed exit point, the only other way to actually offload risk is to get a cut of other players' profits in return, based solely on the number of hands played.


All this of course assumes you're a winning player to begin with. If you're not, it pays to take a shot because you might run good, and have pocketed some of the profits before they eventually kick you out for not performing.

Seems like they have a pretty tight leash around their "traders" necks. For the 1st 6 months you actually only get 25% of your profits, what seems to be at the end of the month. The other 15 at the end of a quarter, and remaining 10 at the end of the year. And there is absolutely no mention about any kind of rakeback. I assume that's where the bonuses come from, but only "if you are profitable"...

So I guess this only makes sense for completely busto, undesciplined tilttards... The only benefit I see is for someone to spend some time in this program, for the purpose of learning how to manage your BR and tilt, and maybe the "mentoring" thing has some merit...

They are very smart about controlling their downside, and since you can only play through them they collect 100% rake, almost equivalent to a old-school bucket shops...

d'

Better Idea:
Have someone in India code all Hand Histories for Cole South from his videos, blogs, etc and then develop an bot.

you also don't understand that not all people have the same level of risk aversion

the risk management involved here is laughably simple compared to that of a large investment bank. you clearly have no idea what "type of stuff" is involved here.

you can't eliminate variance for the individual players. compensation has to be results based to have any chance of success. you're not going to have 100 players with 3bb/100 (expected) winrates. you'll have some losers and some big winners.

that is moronic.

The only reduction in risk is that they FORCE you to be more conservative. Basically, they impose a stop loss that you really can't get around, and they force you to play within your competence level. Actually, not a bad idea if you think about, since those 2 are probably what usually separates profitable from the unprofitable.

As primitive as this may sound, I am actually happy to have stumbled on info about them, as I will now try to tailor my own strict money/bankroll management system based on some of their guidelines/requirements.

d'

Yeah, it works...

I used to play for BadBeat as a $200 daily loss limit player.

You get good mentoring and support. They keep all the rake you generate, you get 25% of your profit a month, the other 25% after a year. You must play 40 hours a week minimum.

It was a grind, I did not enjoy that long of poker with university and bball and social time added in.

If you have major tilt issues and can't control your BR its a good choice. If you can make money yourself from the game, AND can manage your money I'd suggest you do that.

I'm John Conroy - Managing Director of Badbeat.com and sometime poker player. Badbeat sponsors and develops winning online players. We are backed by a private trading company and currently have over 200 bankrolled players. We provide daily loss limits to our players ranging from $50 a day to $100k a day. Our proposition is fairly simple - we provide Bankroll in return for a share of the profits - profits are calculated annually and at year end - we start again.... so it's not true that profits roll on forever.

When we formed Badbeat some 3 years ago - we could see huge similarities between Poker Players and day traders in the Financial sector - so we set about seeing if we could provide similar infrastructure for poker players as are routinely provided for Day Traders. When we began we made a number of errors and it's true to say we lost money. Poker is a dark dark world ... Over the last few years we have learned and adapted our systems to ensure fairness to both the players and the investors. We have fairly sophisticated anti fraud and risk management systems.

Why should winning players join Badbeat? It's the question I am most frequently asked - The cute answer is that I honestly believe that winning players will win and KEEP more money for themselves over the medium term. Believe it or not , some poker players have tilt issues .. winning consistenly for weeks or even months then losing it all in a few days madness / drunkeness.... Players who work with us can afford to play higher stakes and therefore if they can beat a higher game they can win more money - despite having to give the investors a share... Our approach tends to lead to a less stressful life for the players...

I'm not trying to turn this into an advert for us - really just trying to answer some of the legitimate questions asked here... But in fairness I should say that Badbeat isn't for all players - some people work best when everything is on the line and therefore would feel completely constrained. We apply the basic risk management systems traders have - namely when times are bad - reduce risk ... that is anathama to a lot of players .. who often head to higher tables to try to turn around losing streaks ... (the irony of the current world financial markets is not lost on me!)

We try to provide an envirornment where poker players can thrive - provide technology , coaching and bank roll to help them succeed - but at it's core is the player's own time and talent. We have players who are not successful with us , and obviously we have success stories .. Our best player will make an estimated $2m this year (and no I won't name him - some of our players want anonymity) ...

Within each year - players who achieve ROI targets are rewarded by receieving 70% of profits thereafter for the rest of the year.

I'm sure there will be plenty of cynics but Badbeat is alive , thriving and open for anyone who wishes to try - alas we do not take US based players.

I would be happy to answer any questions if I can ... if the moderator allows queries can be sent to info@badbeat.com

John Conroy
Managing Director
Badbeat Limited

Punkfloyd:

Just curious, how does the bonus scheme work? I'd assume it's some version of "rakeback"... If your "traders" play on your site, and you get to keep all of the rake, or at least most of it, that seems like worse than a 50/50 split. Also, since you actually hold on to a portion of the money for a quarter or a year, do you compensate the "traders" w/ some additional percentage? Cause if not, seems like you are getting an interest free loan...

d'

John,

Would you consider a mixed compensation scheme, with a lower % of profits but an 'hourly' of say 1 BB/100, or a pro-rated share of other players' winnings (which should still reduce my own risk)?

No.

If you read the rst of my post you will see my point.

Playing 10000NL with 1% of yourself is the same as playing 100NL with all of yourself so the risk aversion thing is bs.

If someone is too risk averse to play 100NL on there own money and only wants half of their action then why not just play 50NL with their own money. It is exactly the same risk only lower stakes are easier.

Ok some networks don't allow any form of rakeback - so the bonus is based around activity. Trainees (lower stakes usually and new to bad beat) don't receive any bonuses; full traders receive 50% of any revenue share we receive provided they are in profit.

Once a player has been with us for 6 months and his loss limit is $5k a day or less we pay him 40% and retain 10% till year end. The reason for the retention is not so we get a sneaky interest free loan - rather it is because poker is a volatile game - our experience tells us that winning players can lose too sometimes and therefore if we had paid them out completely they would technically owe us money - and we have had bad experiences of that. Equally once a player has been with us for 6 months or more we have a very good idea of his likely profile - swings etc and are more comfortable with them.

We are currently running a trial based on similar principals - I will let you know how it goes in a few months time.

@Punkfloyd
Just browsed the badbeat site and it says that someone playing on their roll needs to make 5 times his daily loss limit to be allowed to move up. Also everyone gets a mentor who decides whether someone is good enough to move up or not.

So if i play NL100 my loss limit is $500. Therefore i need to win $2,500 to be allowed to move up to NL200. If (after winning 2,5k) my mentor thinks i´m good enough to move up I get the proper br for NL200 but can also keep $1,250 (50% of $2,500) of my winnings.
Is that correct?
This really sounds like a deal!

What are the loss limits for Fixed Limit (especially FLHU)? Do you have mentors for FLHU?

you just don't understand the transfer of risk. if you have a willing backer who is less risk averse than the player, you can always come up with an arrangement that makes both of you better off, assuming the games/stakes are available. always. i play on a partial stake almost all the time for that exact reason.

but you seem to think being staked means giving way a piece of your action with no benefit to yourself, which is just dumb.

Hi there - yes that's pretty much how it works - prove you can beat a level and we wil help you move higher - if you struggle at the new level then we move you back down. Our systems are designed to protect the players (and us) in the event of running bad / playing bad - during these times we reduce risk - when running well we can move players up.

We do have Limit mentors and we do have HU mentors - as to whether we have a specific Limit HU mentor - I'm not certain, I doubt it tbh... sry

I would assume many players they back are losing players.

your not very clever.

you're

Generally, I don't think it would make any sense for a winning player to be backed for any significant period of time.

Occasionally, it would make sense for a strong player to be backed for a nosebleed game if the lineup is particularly soft (ie huge whale donating) -- but of course we all know this.

However, there are other reasons I could see as a good reason for this and generally this would still apply for higher stakes than lower stakes...as generally 2-4 games are harder than 1-2 games which are harder than 50 cent - 1 dollar games.

The main reason I can think of for getting staked for cash games on a consistent basis would be if you needed ur bankroll for something unrelated to poker - pay cash for house, pay medical bills for someone, etc.

I would take advantage of this to take shots at the nosebleeds.