What about people who don't bitch about not making that much and are happy content with making less. Are they doing it wrong?

he bought me a new car. it's all good.

Haha man have you not seen this guy around here? He used to run a taco stand in front of JP Morgan or something and in some strange way knowing or having known some super serious investment bankers makes him feel really validated. He's just constantly talking about it. Not at all surprised to see him working his angle in yet another thread in which it does not belong. I love it!

Definitely a freak and a very weird dude.

No, but we're not arguing that. When people are saying a starting salary of 60k out of college (or relatively shortly out of college) is way out of touch and I show multiple sources saying it's really not for certain majors, what kind of argument is that? It has nothing to do with what we're debating.

I say it's not that out of the ordinary for certain majors.

He says it's no where near the average.

I say I'm not talking about the average.

He says I'm a snob.

Wut?

Well if you say no then it seems like someone playing poker for less then 60k and are happy and content are not doing it wrong either.

Yes, and I agree with that. If you're happy with whatever your doing, then no one else in the world has any right to tell you any different. It doesn't matter if you're the President or work at Burger King. If you're happy and content, fine.

The discussion evolved into poker as as living and the viability of it long-term, including income and autonomy vs going to college and working. Many of the stats and conclusions that people on the pro poker side are simply incorrect, and the discussion spurned from there (read posts 40-60, and then 101).

Look, I care little what people do as long as you aren't hurting anyone. Really, who should care what other people do or like? But the rampant misconceptions about going to college and getting a job are getting out of hand on these boards. People scoff at the idea of having a career and being an office monkey, or that going to college simply isn't worth it. I've always argued the opposite. Does it always work out? Absolutely not. Is it worth the "risk"? Well, yeah. Compared to the risk of being a poker pro trying to grind out a decent living? As far as risk goes there is really no comparison.

You're the first person in my entire life that has ever called me "weird". I've been called a lot of things, but that's a first.

In light of your response as it pertains to this thread and the support you've given to the person with the worst logic in the thread, I'd think the reverse, but it is the internet so it doesn't surprise me.

The kind of guy who posts "well fyi i am in the top 11% of incomes and have a net worth of 150ka to 2+2 is a weird dude.

Alright, it didn't seem like you did before but i was just skimming your posts.

Well those numbers are incorrect, and if I did say that I said it to make a point. Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote, and the reason I wrote it.

If anything is weird, it's someone who follows other people around in threads and quotes incorrect information. No?

Hey, if you're happy, I'm happy for you. That doesn't mean that stats and facts are now wrong because someone has a different perspective on life. The only thing I really care about is the accuracy of the situation, which is turn is influencing people's decision making paradigm.

I'm adamant about it because it's very detrimental to people who choose to listen to these incorrect figures. Let's take two scenarios :

1) Being a poker player means you make good money and you don't have to answer to a boss. You can make your own hours and enjoy your life as you wish since there is no one to answer to. The money you'll make is at least comparable to what most people in the United States make a year. Going to college isn't a guarantee of a job, and if you do get a job it'll be for a very bad starting salary on average, and you'll be miserable. College isn't even worth it these days with the state of the economy and the debt you'll be in when you are done.

2) Being a poker pro is ridiculously risky. Some make money, most don't, and the emotional swings and lack of stability are very hard to manage. Going to college and getting a desirable degree will most likely get you a job making a decent starting salary. You very well might not enjoy it, but you may find yourself in better conditions later in your career, or even at the start if you find something you enjoy and get lucky. There is stability in having a career. You probably won't get rich, but being comfortable is very likely. If you choose poker, going back to the working world down the road is much more difficult.

Now which of these two scenarios are closer to the truth? Which ones do you see more of on these boards?

Not all degrees provide stability. What if your kid goes to college to be an artist? You better discourage them.

Yeah I've addressed that. Yes, I would discourage my kid to become an artist, but if that's what they choose, I'd have to be ok with it, but I'd present my case about how hard it would be financially on them. After that, it's their choice.

I would do the same if my kid went to a top 10 school and wanted to be a social worker. It'd be very difficult financially. It's the same thing as going to an expensive art school and then making very little money afterwards. Financially, it's not an optimal decision. This doesn't mean I can make the choices for other people and I realize that. I would just try to steer them towards an easier situation.

Just being honest here. I know it may sound bad, but in the end I'd live with it.

Well.. the good thing about parents like you who try and crush dreams is it sometimes gives inspiration to those in those tough fields to succeed.

20 Most Useless Degrees

1. Journalism
2. Horticulture
3. Agriculture
4. Advertising
5. Fashion Design
6. Child and Family Studies
7. Music
8. Mechanical Engineering Technology
9. Chemistry
10. Nutrition
11. Human Resources
12. Theater
13. Art History
14. Photography
15. Literature
16. Art
17. Fine Arts
18. Psychology
19. English
20. Animal Science

I have met people who have degrees in some of these. They have some things in common. They are unemployed (or underemployed), and their parents took a hands-off approach.

My position is exactly the opposite. (Good thing we're getting back on the topic of parenting here) Parents who have a hands off approach and let their kids do "whatever makes them happy" usually have kids who turn out to be unmotivated with no direction and unhappy.

I don't "crush dreams". I'm a realist. I'm a person who looks at things for what they are. If you want to work at Starbucks making 8 dollars an hour and have 40k in school debt with an art major and doing photography or pottery on the side, then so be it. You should also realize the path your taking and the seriously financial consequences of those decisions.

The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people make best of their situations because they don't have any real choices. People with hard skills and good educational backgrounds HAVE choices. See all those people in the world who argue that they are happy doing what they are doing because they get to spend more "quality time with their family"? Well most of them are justifying their situations in their minds. They think of those expensive houses or expensive schools and think "those things are for other people, not me". They say they could achieve those things if they wish but in reality they can't, they can't because they don't have the work ethic or the education to achieve those things. Not in the least bit.

I don't want my kid to be like that. I want them to truly have that option, not to kid themselves and pretend they could if they wanted to. Most people don't. I want them to be successful and make good decisions, and that all starts with the proper upbringing in terms of education and morality and social skills. This is no guarantee of success, but it's a start, and that involvement and work that is put into their early years yields results later in life.

Think of all the successful people you know. What % of them were driven to succeed in their early years?

It's actually pretty easy to spend $4,800/month, without a drug problem. As a datapoint, I offer you my monthly budget. I live in a city in the USA that has a comparatively low cost of living, btw.

Rochester, NY, married with two kids and two dogs and one cat:

Mortgage -- $2,800
"Nest Egg" investments -- $300
Gas & Electric Bill -- $300
Cable bill -- $105
Telephone bill -- $39
Propane -- $37
Kids 529 plan college fund savings -- $833
Kids Daycare -- $440
Security service -- $41
Long distance phone service -- $5
Groceries -- $600
Pet Expenses -- $200
xFer to Savings -- $250

Total Monthly Expenses: $5,950

Note that this does not include annually recurring expenses like car insurance, etc., and also does not include 401K retirement savings (which are taken off of the top automatically), or car payments (we don't have any). Nor does it include our cell phone plans (paid for by the company), or any extravagant spending on toys, vacations, etc.

Granted, some of it is discretionary, and we're actually saving money each month looking towards the future (kids college funds, nest egg, etc.). But it's really not hard at all to have a monthly "nut" that far exceeds the $4,800 you mentioned, without extravagant spending, without living in an expensive city, and without a cocaine habit.

how much was your house
2800 is a lot for a mortgage

It's a 15 year fixed mortgage (our only debt), and includes the taxes & and insurance in escrow each month in the payment. You can (approximately) do the math from there. But that's really besides the point...

I'm more curious about wtf "propane" is.

This is nonsense. You underestimate grossly how autonomous children are at a very early age. This is if you let them become a concious and self confident being! They are very well prepared to make important decisions very early in their lifes.

The way you want to raise your kids ("do everything humanly possible to manipulate them the way I want it") turns them into exactly the person you don't want them to be. Somebody that can't think for himself and needs other people to make the decisions for him. In the beginning you'll make the important decisions for him, then it's going to be his boss. You'll raise a wuss.


This is dead wrong. We are not talking about taking the trash out. We're talking about passions. I have worked a lot with kids. And when you see how motivated they are when they do what they want to do you'll see how hard they can and want to work.


Where did you read that I don't do that? I obviously try to instill those values in my kids.

But there is more values I try to instill in my kids ....

especially to think for themselves!


I don't see how this contradicts each other. I know a lot of "starving artist" that have university degrees, work extremly hard and still don't earn the money they "deserve". But they are happy and have good fulfilled lifes. Maybe it's different here in Germany. Because we have a working social system. So even when you're "starving" your medical care is paid for and your kids go to the same schools and universities as everybody else (no school fees and no real university fees).

A real world example. A friend of mine studies art & photography against the will of his father. He couldn't live from his art for 10+ years. He lived like a poor church mouse. Taking any job he could to float. Now he's establised. Is doing exhibitions, has his own shop and is doing jobs for big companies (BMW etc.). He is happy as can be. And so happy he didn't let his idiot father steer him away from his dreams.


No, you haven't. You're mistaking parents that don't give a **** with parents that raise kids that think for themselves.


Well if your son decides to become a poker player you should probably get involved in his training at a very early age too.


U mad? lol.


Sure. is that why you make the "starving artists", "car down payment" etc. remarks? Read your posts. They have "money money money" written all over them.


Hm ... how about poker?

This sentence actually contradicts everything you said before. Now your kid "made the decision what he wanted to do"?

Yep. Sounds more like Full Metal Jacket, Sgt Hartman


You underestimate the power and motivation that lies in our kids. Your kid'll teach you. I hope you'll listen.

You should really cut down on those long distance calls!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane



Anyway, my point is just that it's really not hard to have a monthly nut of > $4,800 (responding to the poster here), without a drug habit, without living in an expensive city, without a million dollar home, and without extravagant spending.

I'm not going line by line to reply to your post, I'll just condense it into my viewpoint. I can't disagree more with the above. Some children are absolutely fine on their own, I can agree with that. Most can use some discipline and positive feedback towards working hard and accomplishing things. Many children, if you leave them alone, will waste time doing nothing.

I just got off the phone with my friend talking about this very subject (he brought it up, not me). We were discussing what makes certain people ambitious and some lazy and resentful. Environment (schools, neighborhood) only goes so far. Parent involvement in work ethic and education are the key factors in creating a likely positive outcome. Nothing is guaranteed, but it's obvious that the attitude towards the way we approach situations in life are what determines success.

I'm not a tyrant, and I don't plan on locking my kid in the basement and beating them until they know their multiplication tables. I'm simply saying that driving your children to achieve and to want good results in their endeavors reaps rewards. Look at children who are at the top of their classes or are at very high skill levels for their age. Then look at their culture at home towards work ethic and education. Do you think there is a correlation there, or do you think I'm simply incorrect?

You're kidding yourself if you think you'll create emotionally stronger people than my approach. Confidence and self-worth are mostly derived from people's belief in their own abilities. When people achieve many things in their lives, this builds up over time.

Like I said, I couldn't disagree with you more on every single point you've made. You make these feel-good statements like "I want my kid to think for themselves!" which really amounts to nothing. Those words don't mean anything, it's a cliche. People really learn to think for themselves when they can see truth, when they can see situations clearly for what they are. That's much more likely to happen if you give them a good foundation and education.

You're artist example is horrible, by the way. We can all come up with outlier examples that break from the norm. This doesn't mean it's the optimal approach.

Hah, I know what propane is but I was just wondering why you use so much of it. Especially during the winter.