Not surprising to see this thread being tarded up by Wil318 and 2outs.

2outs is a bitter old guy who always hated to see young poker players who were actually able to excel at something he wasn't able to. He took great joy in seeing a lot of the marginal "23 year old cap and hoodie" pros get wiped out during BF, but many of those were not real pros to begin with.

Wil318 tards up econ and politic threads often, so no surprises there. He also finds not so subtle ways of trying to brag about what he makes while calling people out, without realizing that his income is unimpressive for most serious MSNL+ poker players.

Been lurking in this thread for a little while and I've largely enjoyed your posts. But this is my favorite.

You've touched on the varying clout of a $60K annual income. I live in the quirky college town of Davis, Calif., just outside of Sacramento. My regular job plus a couple of side gigs adds up to just under the $60K threshold. It means I can get by, pay the bills, and stay in the black. But I'm not exactly living the high life.

Making $60K per orbit would represent a marked change three hours south in Bakersfield, where housing costs are less than half. Making that amount in Silicon Valley just 90 minutes away means I'd better get a roommate and develop a taste for Top Ramen. So $30 per hour means something different wherever you are.

But I don't need to bore you with that stuff -- you all have covered it several times over.

One thing for Americans to consider, especially since the DOJ has mostly locked us out of the virtual cardrooms, is what such a given income is worth in the areas where a professional player would live to continue playing. Take a Vegas pro. Unless he/she lives in the city itself, such a player would experience a higher-than-average cost of living in suburbs like Henderson, Summerlin, etc. Same thing for those living within shouting distance of the Southern California rooms.

And yes, I know this thread discusses more than the sheer dollars and cents of being a professional poker player. But I gotta agree with Wil and others: making $60K playing poker – especially in the areas where B&M poker thrives – probably won't be a secure, comfortable living for most people.

Finally, to the OP... your boy looks pretty happy to me:

If anything, I've always said what I do or make is unimpressive in the least bit, but if it was that easy for me it shouldn't be that difficult for someone who actually applies themselves.

As for "serious MSNL+" poker players, I suggest you change that to "successful MSNL+ poker players". Of which I'd argue there aren't nearly as many as you are implying, or in terms of discussion in this thread.

at the end we will be all dead, when your lying in you bed dying and you are satisfied looking back at your life working 60 years in your typical unimpressive job that every average guy can do and your happy with it than fine. Some people have different goals

Then why bother doing anything then?

And, some people have better goals than being a 60k grinder. Maybe you'll get really lucky and make 200k a year for 3 years straight, THEN go busto. At least you can say for a few years you really made it, right before your son has to pay for your funeral because you died broke.

A propane-fueled fireplace is used for heat in the poker barn in the winter.

....because obviously anyone who makes a half mill at poker must be a degenerate who's itching to dust off their net worth at the blackjack tables.

It's tough for some people to wrap their heads around, but the reality is that once you have a certain degree of financial security - there isn't enough money in the world to justify spending 2/3rds of your waking hours doing something you don't want to do.

Truth.

You dont need to have a hands off approach to support your kids pipe dreams.

So am i. So if my kid wanted to be an artists, or a poker player, i would support them and tell them they should have a backup plan since those are hard things to accomplish successfully.

No doubt. Thats why i would encourage them to do what they want and have a back up if they fail.
Meh this is more of the, people making under 60k a year are not really happy and are just fooling themselves. Since you know the minds of all of us i wont argue it except not everyone needs shiny things to make them happy.
You can teach a kid to follow their dreams and do what they want and teach them to be driven.

cost of living in vegas and most of florida is hilariously low (also no state tax)

i know guys who have 2 fulltime jobs.

Something to consider:

Our discussion in the thread seems to focus on comparing professional poker to a job and equate hourly win rate to hourly salary. Let us try comparing professional poker and running a business. As a business owner, our hero needs to worry about capital, revenue, upswings and downswings, cost of running, etc. Most business fails and only the top players survive. Most businesses start small and plan to grow. Most poker players start small and move up. Poker players who are good and run good might not see the long losing streak. Businesses that are good for a few years can go busto in a hurry too. Running a business is a closer approximation than working as an employee for the poker profession.

So do dads want the kids to start a business?

- hyachu

huge egos itt haha

OP is an excellent mom imo. my mom is not a fan of poker/gambling. would be strange

Very nice setup.

Worth 34 dollars a month.

Everyone should pursue their dream instead of getting a degree and grinding it out 60+ hours a week for minimal pay......the great thing about poker even if your only mildly successful is you get a great life lesson in business and can open alot of doors to other opportunities......Alot of jobs hit a ceiling pretty quick where you can't move too far up financially, and making connections won't lead to much......yeh there's great jobs working for people where there's no ceiling and connections can lead to great things, but alot of people box themselves in early on to be "safe".....glad to see someone going for their dreams and ultimately will lead a great and successful life.

Interesting and I mostly agree...considering that a poker player's hours are not structured like a 9 to 5 job. As for 'might not seeing a losing streak', well...playing poker with that negativity in mind might not be very beneficial for a serious player in that it would reflect in the decision making process while playing.

It's great that you managed to find a tolerable 9-5 that pays really well, but if you can't understand why some people might have approached life differently I don't envy your children.

Hmmm, according to Sperling's (www.bestplaces.net):

HENDERSON, NEV.
Overall cost of living: 17% higher than national average
Food: 4% higher
Housing: 48% higher
Utilities: 8% lower
Transportation: 5% higher
Health: 10% higher
Misc: 10% higher

SUMMERLIN SOUTH, NEV.
Overall cost of living: 22% higher
Food: 4% higher
Housing: 66% higher
Utilities: 8% lower
Transportation: 5% higher
Health: 10% higher
Misc: 10% higher

LAS VEGAS, NEV.
Overall cost of living: 9% higher
Food: 4% higher
Housing: 19% higher
Utilities: 8% lower
Transportation: 5% higher
Health: 10% higher
Misc: 10% higher

Florida is sort of hit or miss. I looked up the Dade County area around the Seminole Hard Rock and got overall COLs that ranged from 10-20% higher than the national average.

I don't know how you define "hilariously low," so I can only give you those numbers. Of course, you're absolutely right about the state income taxes, which is certainly nothing to sneeze at. That's like a great rakeback plan. (incidentally, I'm preparing my taxes right now).

Just for grins, I looked up the same figures for Palo Alto, Calif. No wonder resident Phil Hellmuth grouses so much after losing a pot.

PALO ALTO, CALIF.
Overall cost of living: 141% higher
Food: 12% higher
Housing: 467% higher
Utilities: 40% lower
Transportation: 20% higher
Health: 19% higher
Misc: 3% higher

This is nonsense. Nothing about poker "gets you a great life lesson in business". Nothing about poker "leads you to a great and successful life".

It may teach you about risk and probabilities and bankroll management, but it surely doesn't do anything to help business skills, period. Working in the actual "working world" helps you with these things, not poker.

Things like working on securing financing, business plans, management structure, presentations, building client relationships, regulatory compliance, human resources, legal issues etc all come from actually having exposure to it through the corporate world. None of these (except possibly building client relationships, which is a stretch) come from poker, and all of them are essential to running a successful business, small or big.

I think too many of you throw out these statements and ideas because you've heard them so often, but if you really think about it they simply don't apply. The only direct aspect that would apply would be risk management.

My only comment here is to have a back-up plan.

Although I'm mot a pro poker player, I personally have two back-up plans. The first is properly investing your money for cash flow. This should be investing the winnings in assets that will give a return, such as real estate or stocks with dividends. I think it's sound advice whether or not someone is a profession poker player. An independent revenue stream will go a long way toward security, especially when it comes to raising a family and health insurance payments.

The other thing to consider is to get a hobby that one truly enjoys and can become an expert in it. Should poker not work out there is another skill to fall back on. If poker keeps working out then it's a great way to spend one's free time anyway.

Just my $.02. Everyone must live their own life and make their own decisions but if I were to be a pro I would prob take these two routes.

-ph

PS - I'm also 35 if it makes a difference to you.

The scenario, I thought, was for a SINGLE POKER PLAYING YOUNG MALE. Maybe I am wrong and misunderstood, but I thought this was an argument about what a young single male should choose to do after college.

Obviously when you add a wife, gf, and kids things change.

I am saying if a 22-29 year old single poker playing male is spending more then 4K hes expenses are too high, but that is my opinion. My mortgage for a 2 bedroom condo is 500/month ... but ya obviously if you have other humans to provide for and give a roof over the math changes.

Good point. My biggest supporter to quieting my full-time job out of college to play poker full-time was my Grandfather, who had been an entrepreneur his whole life, never went to college, and didn't become successful until later in his life after many road blocks along the way. At family functions the only people who understood how poker can be profitable were him and a CPA ... because both understood skill, and how pressing 51% edges even when you lose many times is profitable.

On the complete other side the High School English Teacher and the Electrician both told me I was bound to fail and couldn't understand how my grandfather could encourage me to play poker ... even 4 years later they insist I must have just been lucky for the past 4 years because they couldn't wrap their heads around the concept of EV.

lol...you're so right. 'must have just been lucky for the past 4 years' seems to be a prevailing thought among a lot of people.

This is the point. It's not that a discussion of whether a single male poker (winning) player can provide for himself, but what happens later in life when "things happen" like getting married, having children, taking care of your parents, having retirement funds etc?

Like it or not, the reality is that most of these things happen to most people, poker players included. You can't walk around in sweat pants the rest of your life.

I agree with you, hard not to.
That said, though, why is it that most opinions here are focused more on the future and not the present ? Isn't the NOW as important as the TOMORROW ?