I take your point, but the extreme is that companies undergo investigations to ensure certain individuals are not allowed into an industry. If those individuals are allowed to come in by just operating as anonymous subs, what then is the point of doing background/key man checks at all?

I'm not down on UP here, kudos and all that. Simply saying the poker industry doesn't deserve player trust at this moment in time. It deserves extra layers of scrutiny.

Why? Because the collective poker community has always been too stupid and gave their money to people they never shouid have? Now there has to be a massive overcompensation the other way because poker players had horrible judgment for a decade?

This reversal of behavior is as illogical and poorly thought out as the original decisions to put money on all these clearly shady poker sites. People who knew better did not put money they could not afford to lose on these sites that clearly were not safe, secure or legitimate.

Now the foolish people got burned over and over and over again they go all billy bad ass on the first legitimate site we have seen in the US. It is stupefying. Better late than never I guess but it feels like you are the guy who yells out he found the condom when the baby is three years old.

I get it. Lots of poker players exhibited really poor judgment by placing money on shady poker sites offshore. Many people lost money or got screwed. Unfortunately it does not seem like many of you understand some of the key ingredients there.

I do not want legitimate online poker in the US to be slowed or derailed because you guys used horrible judgment and put large sums of money on sites you knew had no legitimate oversight and where you knew you were not legally protected.

wow, good call ultimatepoker. i didn't have much hope for this one, guess i shoulda

Kudos to UP.

I am glad they have done what they did but they look very foolish using the ridiculous tainted name they have and not vetting their major business partners to begin with. The Greg Pierson issue wasn't a great big secret. They were with either stupid or lazy. Hopefully things get better and this industry can do a better job on the next US facing start up.

So markksman, it's cool that the illegitimate sites people were screwed on can just jump into the regulated market to serve players?

I mean, ITT it seems pretty conclusive that stolen UB funds have led to significant funding in this Iovation company.

It seems like you went a bit overboard with hate on players, when extending the exact same judgement would've put Iovation out of the picture in a regulated US market before it even started.

And nothing is derailing UP.

I think this was actually a great process. Something bad was found, it was fixed quickly, nothing was derailed and all signs point to positive results from this process.

In the future, other regulated sites might look into things a bit more closely, and if they do not, you can see plenty of hard working players in this community that will.

It'd be cool if some news sites covered the story that UP stopped using Iovation. That's a really interesting story, and players/other site operators should know about it.

I edited a previous article and tweeted the news. I am trying to find out more info on who the new company is and the process but have nothing yet, otherwise the article would be about three sentences and will be ignored by Google.

i'm pretty cranky that ultimate poker can operate in nevada while stars cant, however i think UP deserves a bit of credit for how they seem to have operated. they're rake that was posted is reasonable, they got rid of iovation pretty quickly, and from a business sense it does make sense that they'd use the name ultimate (they own UFC...), so that they could have ultimate poker, ultimate fighting, ultimate bowling (lol) etc etc.

i still wish you could play on stars/ftp from nevada obv, but i've been pleasantly surprised with how UP seems to be run the last few days (maybe i was more pessimistic than most tho)

not remotely ready to pat UP on the back for this. ya, dropping iovation was the right move but it was also the only move they had. remember they're operating on a 30 day trial before they're examined by the regulatory body and if they hadn't dropped iovation by that point with this information released i would have to imagine that would badly hurt their bid to get a full license

as R&R said i find it quite troubling that UP even put themselves in this situation to begin with. either UP did their due diligence on iovation and didn't mind, or UP bungled their due diligence altogether. either way, not a great look

idk i think i was just super pessimistic and expected the worst heh

Agreed of course
But this is wrong. There seems to be a lack of understanding how NV Gaming works. Nevada has no record of issues with Russ Hamilton, Greg Pierson, Iovation, or the Ultimate Bet scandal. That appears scandalous, doesn't it? I mean the guys at NV Gaming read the paper right? Yes, but there was never a formal complaint filed that we know about - hence there was never an investigation into the ownership of UB that would lead towards the unsuitability of Iovation in the eyes of Nevada Gaming. We have nobody to blame but ourselves, if any player filed a complaint that notified NV Gaming about Iovation's management and history, then this thread probably wouldn't have to exist.

Ultimate Poker clearly had other options to consider, but they chose the best option when they removed Iovation - and for that they should be praised. Sure it could be argued that if they did not remove Iovation then traffic would have been hurt so they were forced to do so, but so far there is no evidence that would have been the case - traffic is growing. "Ultimately"; Ultimate Poker chose to do the right thing. Good for them!

UP's other move could have been to take the information learned here to Nevada Gaming and wait for a decision, the NGCB would likely determine that CAMS approval of Iovation was an unsuitable choicen which would place a smudge on CAMS record, and Iovation would be disqualified from continuing to do business with gaming companies in the state. None of this would affect UP negatively if they approached the gaming board asking for guidance... in fact it would probably make them look good in the eyes of the board. This would have been a reasonable choice if they could not get CAMS to replace Iovation's services with another vender quickly,

The 30 day trial is to verify that the technology works and is fair, the gaming license is not on trial - that was already awarded. NVGaming expects UP to inform them of any issuse that occur during this trial, now if UP witheld any information about Iovation once the issue was discovered then that could jeopardize the license... but as explained above, as long as UP discloses their concern about CAMS' vendor (Iovation) then UP is performing the duties required within the gaming license.

Have you done your due diligence on Iovation? This is a company that is used by nearly every online gaming company (Rational aka Stars not included).... so how come it took the community so long to protest the use of Iovation's services? Collectively we should have been raising hell long before UP was discovered to be using their services, players should have sent complaints to the gaming jurisdictions of Isle of Man, Alderney, Malta, etc to make sure that Iovation was deemed unsuitable to be used as a vendor by gaming licenses. So let me ask you (and everyone else who has taken this position) - if Nevada Gaming did not know about the issues with Iovation, and the rest of the industry does not know about the issues with Iovation, then how can any of us expect to assume that CAMS and Ultimate Poker knew that Iovation's Greg Pierson (who was never brought into a police station for his crimes) was associated with the Ultimate Bet cheating scandal? Once again the blame should fall on us, the community, for not raising bloody hell earlier when we could have prevented this from occurring rather than blaming UP for not knowing that Iovation was a problematic sub-vendor of a company that was found to be suitable by Nevada Gaming.

cliffs:

* Ultimate Poker was never at fault, they did the right thing at all paths considering their lack of information initially; once the information about Iovation became clear they acted appropriately and quickly. UP should be commended for doing the right thing at all steps. Reward UP with your business.
* Players should be up in arms about Iovation doing business with ANY poker rooms, not just UP. Make sure the room you play at knows about Iovation's history, and refuse to continue playing unless they take action to remove services and technology from Iovation. Do not assume the management of your poker room knows about the scandal, you would be surprised at how uninformed the management in online poker rooms can be.
* Players should notify the major gaming jurisdictions about the history of Greg Pierson and his involvement in both UB and Iovation. Do not assume that your regulatory body knows about Iovation, be sure to explain why they should be deemed unsuitable to be used as a vendor.
* Nevada Gaming needs to be notified that CAMS was using an unsuitable third party vendor. Ultimate Poker will be sharing this information with Nevada Gaming eventually if they have not already done so, but players also need to file complaints to assure that Iovation is investigated. Once this door is opened, it may eventually lead to blackballing Russ Hamilton and Greg Pierson in the state of Nevada - this should be our "ultimate" goal.

PS: A lot of this could have been avoided is Travis Maklar would have released his evidence years earlier, rather than wait until after the statute of limitations have passed. That was an uncool move.... he should not be praised, he has his own self-protectionist agenda that interfered with this info being released sooner.

I would like to pursue this, but I really need accurate transcripts of the two released audio files to do so. Is anyone out there willing to make them, or pay for a professional to do so? PM me.

FWIW I've started working on this but it's a pretty slow go and will take me some time. I don't know if anyone else is actively transcribing the recordings but it would be best if it was done in some organized fashion to avoid duplicated work and to help complete it faster. I've started from the beginning of DW_A0018 so if someone else wants to work on it, post ITT what segment you're working on, maybe a 1-hour segment of either of the two files you can get from PokerXanadu's site linked ITT.

If you do it in the appropriate format I'll happily add it to my youtube video and give you credit of course.

I dont have any skin in this game, cant wait to check out UP next time in Vegas and like most of us just want healthy, online poker market in the U.S.

two points from my experience with licensed gaming companies in the U.S.

1) Licensed gaming companies are required to perfrom some level of due diligence/compliance on business partners/vendors. This would typically include background checks of officers, directors, and/or owners depending on corp structure. You cant be licensed and do business with bad people or bad money. Companies cannot be perfect but as long as they have a documented, common sense compliance process in place which they adhere to, should be able to keep out of hot water.

2) Many contracts involving licensed gaming companies have an out that could be summarized by "if this contract puts in jeopardy XXX's gaming license, then can terminate without cause". Very standard clause in the industry.

p.s. regarding the tapes... Wow, just wow.

sorry if this been ask before but Does anybody know what system Ultimate Poker is using now since they dropped Iovation. I think some disclosure is needed.

How about FULL disclosure of the company structure right through to who beneficially owns UP and every company and person that provides any product or service, consulting, management or otherwise, to UP and any other company involved with UP, directly or indirectly.

Then we pick that apart and ask any further questions that might arise.

A 'Must Read' example of the corporate obfuscation that has always existed in online poker

glad they made the move, its a good first step. need to get Iovation out permanently

FFS, don't put this on Travis! The UB/Iovation scam/scandal was well known long before anyone ever heard of Travis. AND, other forums and podcasts tried very hard to get this news out long before now. Unfortunately, few listened (or cared) until it became a current affair because of UP starting up, which again, few people knew about before it happened.

What's not 'cool' is ****ting on innocent people for what they didn't know or didn't do. We should be encouraged that they are engaged now and use this momentum to improve the dreadful state of the online poker industry.

Good job OP and everyone else doing work on this

So UP used Iovation to identify a players age and identity right? And it seems at players' request they have dropped them from that role in UP... So who is filling that role now? How were they able to get someone to fill it so fast? Is this new group approved by the NGC? Link?

Just my opinions, but a couple of things come to mind:

- The company they contract is CAMS, and UP didn't state they dropped them. Only that they do not use iovation's services. It's quite possible CAMS works with dozens of other third parties and could easily offer alternative services. These subcontractors are apparently not vetted by the NGC.

- Secondly, I believe Iovation's identity services is more about fraud detection/flagging high risk accounts. It's likely an optional service that does not need to be directly replaced.

Has anyone looked into Iovation and dissected all parent companies related or connected to it? Now days umbrella corps and subsidiaries are how these scam artist hide themselves from public view. If it hasn't already been done it would be a good idea to bring complete transparency upon the owners of this company and all persons/ affiliates/ etc. that are involved.

The first one seems possible.

Assume the bolded is true, why were they using them in the first place? Obv you can't speak for UP, but that makes no sense.