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How do we get another Poker Boom? How do we get another Poker Boom?

04-01-2015 , 05:45 PM
Neteller leaving the US made getting $ on/off the sites much more of a challenge for many in 2006/2007 era. Perhaps that is a major influence in what caused interest to dwindle before black Friday.
How do we get another Poker Boom? Quote
04-01-2015 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam
Hey


Guess the reason it seemed to me like maybe you didn't believe that sites were price gouging was because price gouging pretty much implies that a company is making excessive profits off of customers' lack of available alternatives, rather than just a normal level of profits in exchange for a good/service? So if someone believed a company's profits were taking advantage of customers lack of alternatives, then it would seem more likely that person would see the solution as lower prices, rather than that people needing to work harder? But it sounds like maybe you do think sites might keeping rake levels too high, I don't know?


Something else that maybe confused me a bit was this stuff, like:
  • spending 40hrs/week on horse racing
  • being down $3k for the year with, despite running above EV
  • then saying that if you spent time studying poker you'd be crushing

Because guess if it were still possible to crush poker by working hard, and if it were easier to make money playing poker than doing other things, then wouldn't you have spent those 40 hrs/week on poker instead of horse racing, and be crushing *right now*? On some level, you must actually agree that it's not possible to crush in poker these days, let alone even squeeze out much of a profit at all (with the exception of tourneys, which I mentioned before), otherwise you'd be doing it, right?


We know people are barely making any money at poker these days because of whotfru. Incidentally, my whotfru graph is quite off – it seems to have picked up the worst of things, and have missed the best, but probably everybody says that right?


Guess the larger big picture things I was trying to say maybe, is that am not sure poker works if it's not possible for anyone to win? And that, like ... of course there's other causes to the contracting poker market like you've pointed out – with people just being more knowledgeable these days and stuff. Guess I was just wanting to add that rake may also be a contributing factor to the contracting poker market since it hasn't been recalibrated to reflect all the changes that have happened in the market since 2011 – and that PokerStars can afford to lower rake, if they're cranking out C$85mil of profit every 3 months. Think that was mostly what I was trying to say I guess ...


Oh I totally agree that sites have rake too high.

I am not saying I would crush poker if I spent 40 hours pw at it like I do horses. I have been studying horses for 30 years. Hard study. Sixteen hour days through most of my 20's. What I meant was if I had given 30 years studying poker to the same degree, that yes I believe I would be one of the few still crushing. But I only started poker in 07, for the first 3 years I only had to play as there was no real need to study. I really only studied poker for about 18 months and it then got to the stage where a very high level of knowledge was needed. I already had this knowledge and more at horses so it made more sense to stick to what I knew best. It's harder at horses but easier for me personally because of my experience. It just didn't seem worth trying to catch up with the guys who were already years ahead of me at poker. Of course this meant I then fell even further behind at poker. Such is life. I'm glad I made the switch and went back to where I came from

Yeah, I'm down 3k this year running slightly above EV. It is what it is. I guess I'm a fun player nowadays, but I do play most weeks for some time and go on the occasional binge when my other action is quiet, as it often is, especially in Jan/Feb. I'm down a bit this year but these games aren't impossible. I could beat it with full application but I don't think I could crush.

GL
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04-01-2015 , 07:08 PM
Cheers, 5

GL GL with the horses!!
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04-01-2015 , 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWallis
Years ago players could be relatively new and still win because everyone was pretty shocking. If a new player deposits now and plays, he will be crushed by the regs that cover all games and all stakes.
.
I can't believe how tight they play.

Black Friday Changed the Game of Poker.

Until that is fixed, the BOOM Player isn't getting a lot of action.
How do we get another Poker Boom? Quote
04-01-2015 , 11:32 PM
Not sure how my comments before read, but guess I didn't say expressly before that yeah I don't think that a new boom is likely possible without a revival of legal poker in the US either. Guess I meant to say that maybe it'd be possible to prevent the market from contracting though, by bringing rake rates in line with the income levels of their current customer base?


Like if the rake was 6bi/100 in 2011 when there was all that US money flowing around, and the market was already in decline at that point, then maybe reducing it to 5bi/100 at the time might have helped reduce the decline? And then when the US market was lost altogether ... maybe now rake needs should ideally only be around 3bi/100? A reduction in rake of that size would be enough for there to be winning players again at most stakes, wouldn't it?


Guess sites don't want to lower rake because they think their profits will just instead flow into the pockets of players - but maybe players being allowed to profit needs to be viewed as another necessary 'cost', just like taxes, and marketing, and promo costs? Otherwise no one's going to recommend poker as a hobby to their friends, if it's more likely people'll wind up losing money to the site, rather than making any money at the tables - and then how is poker supposed to grow if it's seen as a money pit? If people just want to play poker for fun, there's Zynga.


Anyways, just thought that maybe Amaya's stock wasn't rising because poker's not doing well (because rake's too high) - but nothing ever changes really ...

Last edited by TrustySam; 04-01-2015 at 11:39 PM.
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04-02-2015 , 12:34 PM
TO me there are 3 major problems that turn rec players away from on-line poker. Most of this has been mentioned already.

1- Transfer of money. You need to be able to deposit/withdraw and have it on your credit card immediately.

2-Need to get rid of Huds, seating scripts, and multi tabling. When a rec player sits down there needs to be other rec players at the tables not just a bunch of pros. All the "pros" playing 24 tables of NL25 should be playing 2 tables of 500nl. If you want to multi table. GO ahead and spread it out on all the different sites.

3-Rakeback has to change. The concept that the site takes all the profit and pays it back depending on the volume you play, kills the rec player. The rec player has no chance to win because most "pros" hardly turn a profit pre-rakeback. Lower Rake and change rake-back to a small bonus.

For the most part on-line poker is set up for pros only. This has to change. If the rec player never wins or can even gets their money easily off the site. They stop playing.
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04-02-2015 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan C. Lawhon
The Cheating Problem

It's interesting how virtually no one in this thread has mentioned the deleterious effect all the online cheating scandals - and the industry's abject failure to aggressively deal with the problem - had in destroying the game. When you have systematic cheating by the sites themselves with people like Russ Hamilton, Nick Grudzein, a convicted felon (A.J. Green), not to mention Phil Hellmuth and those Montana frat boys running UB/AP, all doing their thing with total impunity - is it any wonder us "fish" turned away? When we saw all this cheating being exposed on "60 Minutes" and by poker journalists like Haley Hintze and [the late] Diamond Flush - not to mention the good work by Noah-SD (and others) here on 2+2 - is it really that big a surprise that "fish" would be turned off?

The low point for me was posting a complaint here on 2+2 about Grudzein and somebody replying to me (paraphrasing) "... good players know how to recognize when they're being cheated" - implying that it's your own fault if you get fleeced by a crook! I couldn't believe there were some players on here actually defending the cheaters! This blasé attitude was the final straw as far as I was concerned ... (I do specifically recall Josem insisting - in a reply to me about Grudzein - that Pokerstars was serious about the cheating problem and had conducted a "thorough investigation" of Nick before they [initially] cleared him insisting that there was "no evidence" of cheating or wrongdoing by Nick and his buddy. (Nick was so thrilled over being "cleared" by Pokerstars that he actually bragged about it in an email to Taylor Caby.) Pokerstars "Nick is clean" line changed only after Noah-SD (and others) started looking very closely at Nick's play. So much for that "thorough investigation ..." So even the (supposedly "honest") sites were complicit in trying to cover up the cheating.

It wasn't just the big bad Government that destroyed poker. By ignoring the cheating problem - probably because it wasn't "profitable" to go after cheaters - the industry helped dig its own grave. Even if online poker eventually gets legalized here in the United States, I won't play until (and unless) there are severe penalties for players who get caught cheating. ("Severe" means cheaters get handcuffed, prosecuted, convicted and thrown in prison where they'll have plenty of time to consider the error of their ways.) As long as operators and regulators ignore the cheating problem and fail to deal with it, I wont play - and I wont encourage any of my friends to play.

The industry needs to understand that there is a cost to ignoring (and failing to deal) with the cheating problem. That "cost" is the number of potential players who stay away.
I agree that this is part of the problems I have heard "i don't trust online poker" story from many many live poker players both pre and post black friday. But I also heard the same objections about live poker way before the UB scandal.

That said - the title of the thread is "How do WE get another poker boom?"
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04-02-2015 , 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by powder_8s
TO me there are 3 major problems that turn rec players away from on-line poker. Most of this has been mentioned already.

1- Transfer of money. You need to be able to deposit/withdraw and have it on your credit card immediately.

2-Need to get rid of Huds, seating scripts, and multi tabling. When a rec player sits down there needs to be other rec players at the tables not just a bunch of pros. All the "pros" playing 24 tables of NL25 should be playing 2 tables of 500nl. If you want to multi table. GO ahead and spread it out on all the different sites.

3-Rakeback has to change. The concept that the site takes all the profit and pays it back depending on the volume you play, kills the rec player. The rec player has no chance to win because most "pros" hardly turn a profit pre-rakeback. Lower Rake and change rake-back to a small bonus.

For the most part on-line poker is set up for pros only. This has to change. If the rec player never wins or can even gets their money easily off the site. They stop playing.
Good post, IMO.

Rakeback is a horrible business model. Imagine walking into a live poker room where the "regulars" win a pot where $5 was carved out for the rake, and the dealer checks to see who wins and if it a regular, he drops $3 and gives the reg the other $2. When you win, the $5 gets dropped. Also, they get free drinks and you don't?

Would you play in that sort of setup?
How do we get another Poker Boom? Quote
04-02-2015 , 02:51 PM
"How do WE get another poker boom?"

Since I am only one poker player and not a casino or poker site -

1) support groups like the PPA to get US online poker "legal" again. Take 10s now and sing this -https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/protect-internet-freedom-oppose-efforts-congress-force-states-shut-down-state-authorized-poker-gaming-sites

2) Don't be an ******* at the poker table. I can't tell you how many times I have seen winning players verbally beat up the fish. We should all do our best to make poker a fun social activity. Have a drink, take off the headphones, and share a few laughs.

3) Voice your opinion and vote with you feet/$$ when you see rake increase both online and live. I can remember paying $3/hand and now I play in games where the house takes $7(some for promotions)
How do we get another Poker Boom? Quote
04-02-2015 , 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by powder_8s
TO me there are 3 major problems that turn rec players away from on-line poker. Most of this has been mentioned already.

1- Transfer of money. You need to be able to deposit/withdraw and have it on your credit card immediately.

2-Need to get rid of Huds, seating scripts, and multi tabling. When a rec player sits down there needs to be other rec players at the tables not just a bunch of pros. All the "pros" playing 24 tables of NL25 should be playing 2 tables of 500nl. If you want to multi table. GO ahead and spread it out on all the different sites.

3-Rakeback has to change. The concept that the site takes all the profit and pays it back depending on the volume you play, kills the rec player. The rec player has no chance to win because most "pros" hardly turn a profit pre-rakeback. Lower Rake and change rake-back to a small bonus.

For the most part on-line poker is set up for pros only. This has to change. If the rec player never wins or can even gets their money easily off the site. They stop playing.
I agree that the software needs to go but there needs to be punishment to stop it. Unless there would be jail time it won't be stopped. If not the person who uses the software will be at a big advantage.
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04-02-2015 , 03:07 PM
Man people really hate HUDs? While HUDs and cheating scandals may have added to some kind of perception that online poker is "rigged against them", the MUCH bigger issue for online poker has to be US legislation!

There were HUDs before, during, and after the boom.

If you want to rail-on about HUDs feel free but, please do it after you make the case for "legal" online poker in the US
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04-02-2015 , 03:43 PM
Getting rid of HUDs is a lot simpler then changing US politics. Especially for those of us that do not live in the US.

I do not know the 1st thing about writing software. Will someone please explain to me why it is difficult for Stars to get rid of HUDS. Stars business model has killed online poker.

It seems to me all they have to do it change their formatting on a regular basis. Hand histories would still be available through e-mails. But every hand history would have a slightly different format. Maybe a daily change in the formatting?
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04-02-2015 , 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by powder_8s
Getting rid of HUDs is a lot simpler then changing US politics. Especially for those of us that do not live in the US.
I agree but but my point is getting rid of HUDs tomorrow isn't going to bring back the poker boom in the US or anywhere else
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04-02-2015 , 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1270
I agree but but my point is getting rid of HUDs tomorrow isn't going to bring back the poker boom in the US or anywhere else
Sorry to be the one to say it. The poker boom, went boom and is gone. Lets be real here. There is really no more need to talk about the US market. Its gone and not coming back any time soon. Its like saying Iraq was more peaceful with Saddam Hussain. Maybe its true, but who cares he's not coming back. Lets talk realistic solutions not fantasies. Lets let the American's sort out their own political problems and stop blaming them for the state of poker in the rest of the world.

Getting rid of HUDS certainly won't hurt the game. Lets do what we can to save todays game. The rules need to be changed so that we are not calling today, "the good ol days". The field needs to be levelled so that a new player that deposits, has a small chance. Today they have none. Its the sites and the pros combined that are killing the game.

Last edited by powder_8s; 04-02-2015 at 05:08 PM.
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04-02-2015 , 05:37 PM
I agree with much that has been written here. But there are places where internet poker for US players is still alive, and beatable. For example, I have doubled my bankroll in the two months that SwCPoker has been in existence. There are some twoplustwo caliber players there, but they also get players from various internet Bitcoin enterprises, who have a completely different idea of how to play poker. The rake is so low at SwCPoker that some break-even players become slow but steady winners. They certainly stay in the game for longer periods of time. When the site solves some remaining connection issues and releases an android app, I believe it may become a more attractive option.
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04-02-2015 , 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurjeff
I agree that the software needs to go but there needs to be punishment to stop it. Unless there would be jail time it won't be stopped. If not the person who uses the software will be at a big advantage.
No need for jail time. Ban it, enforce the ban with technology, and if that technological ban is circumvented just seize the money in the account, keep half for the site to fund enforcement, and disburse the rest amongst those they have played them.

Easy fix.
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04-02-2015 , 11:51 PM
France,Italy,USA and Spain huge fish donators back on world player pool. Also, US only generates winners now and mostly big ones on world player pool.
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04-03-2015 , 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by powder_8s
Sorry to be the one to say it. The poker boom, went boom and is gone. Lets be real here. There is really no more need to talk about the US market. Its gone and not coming back any time soon. Its like saying Iraq was more peaceful with Saddam Hussain. Maybe its true, but who cares he's not coming back. Lets talk realistic solutions not fantasies. Lets let the American's sort out their own political problems and stop blaming them for the state of poker in the rest of the world.

Getting rid of HUDS certainly won't hurt the game. Lets do what we can to save todays game. The rules need to be changed so that we are not calling today, "the good ol days". The field needs to be levelled so that a new player that deposits, has a small chance. Today they have none. Its the sites and the pros combined that are killing the game.
Well my views are US centric since that is where I am. The Moneymaker boom was driven largely by US players. While I would love to see US online poker to comeback strong I would also love to see more action in live games(where the HUD issue is irrelevant)

I am not as pessimistic as you seem to be on getting more "legal" online poker in the US. We have NV,NJ,DE already and CA and PA are seriously looking at bills.

But you are likely right that the boom isn't coming back but we can still hope for better action than we have now
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04-03-2015 , 12:34 AM
The 5mm gurantee is the last hoorah for poker.
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04-03-2015 , 12:35 AM
The answer is simple, make Full tilt and Stars available to U. S. Players again.
How do we get another Poker Boom? Quote
04-03-2015 , 01:07 AM
Ohh and HSP with Gabe Kaplan
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04-03-2015 , 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swd805
Was chess ever banned in the USA?
Here's a positive thought.

After the 1917 Boleshevik Revolution in Russia, chess was officially discouraged (not exactly banned) by the new communist government. The pseudo-ban stayed in place for about three years.

In the late 1940s, Russian players would start dominating world chess for more than the next half century.

Maybe poker can make a comeback in the U.S.
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04-03-2015 , 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLSIDED
The answer is simple, make Full tilt and Stars available to U. S. Players again.

LOL alotta the ROW players just dont get it even after all this time. federal regulation in the US is years away if ever and if and when it were to happen the US GOVT wont mix the player pool with players from other countries so id stop banking on that. banning HUDS and scripts is the best chance but too many are scared/arent good enough to play with out them so not enough will get together and speak up to get em ousted. instead you'll watch your winrates decrease instead of actually increase if they were taken out
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04-03-2015 , 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4GET2PWNED0
LOL alotta the ROW players just dont get it even after all this time. federal regulation in the US is years away if ever and if and when it were to happen the US GOVT wont mix the player pool with players from other countries so id stop banking on that. banning HUDS and scripts is the best chance but too many are scared/arent good enough to play with out them so not enough will get together and speak up to get em ousted. instead you'll watch your winrates decrease instead of actually increase if they were taken out
I remember I use to read this site anonymously from time to time years ago (2011'ish) and as soon as a poster would post this he would be attacked.

You hit the nail on the head. I find it comical to say the least when these hudtards would defend their huds like the 2nd amendment. Its plain and simple, all of this software is designed to exploit and cripple other players at the tables. We (they) are biting the hand that feeds us. Poker will and is becoming extinct because of this. FACT.

Its laughable when these players say its a skill to use a hud, well that maybe true, but its NOT A POKER SKILL. I dont call them poker players. Statistical analyst's maybe, but not poker pro's. But like you said, nothing will be done about it, so we just have to enjoy whats left of online poker till its dried up completely
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04-03-2015 , 05:52 AM
all we need for the boom, is yanks back on pokerstars 100% solve the problem
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