Ford is probably right, but hey ford could easily be wrong

I thought it was settled law in the US that loss of a coupon is not a pecuniary loss. Remission only compensates pecuniary losses. Medals and points are of a similar nature to a coupon.

That doen't mean you couldn't try claiming a value for points and medals. It just means I doubt such a claim would be honoured. I would hope to see some more clarity around what happens when you put in a claim for greater than what the DOJ thinks your balance is and the DoJ disallows at least part of the incremental art of the claim. Is it absolutely clear they will still pay the rest of the claim?

Are you suggesting that he remembers this whether or not it actually occurred?

Given the bolded, I would think that somebody whose cheque bounced due to DoJ seizure is in at least as good shape as someody who just let the cheque go stale-dated.

Didn't stars/tilt already say these points would be waiting if player moved or if FTP came back to U.S.? It was a while back but I thought they made this statement.

Some guys have moved and collected these points. And the records of US players are as of April 15th 2011 that the DOJ has.

So just by going on this stuff I would guess it is almost certain you will not be able to claim points.

If the points are still in peoples accounts then it seems they were NOT part of any settlement.

Also let's just play devils advocate and assume points were part of the settlement. U think when people move from US to Canada and cash in their points Full Tilt contacts the DOJ and says xxxxxxxxxx moved, deduct their points or some BS like that. Out of the question IMO

I would be shocked if when September 16th or whatever the date the claim period opens or whenever they put out new material that they say you can claim your points. It is possible but I would guess there is no way they pay out these points.

Also points are not part of account balances. If you turned them to cash then they are cash. They are almost like coupons or Frequent Flier miles. You think if an airline went donkdown and there was remission you would get reimbursed for your frequent flyer points? Highly doubtful but we will see

Edit : Claiming points could hold up the entire remission process and your own claim IF they say they have nothing to do with them

I agree with you wholeheartedly that as described this is just a contracts case. But, the money at hand in this discussion is remissions money and I can not make the jump from failing on what was essentially part of a contract to that failure being part of the fraud as alleged in the complaint.

You are assuming it was FTP that caused the problem, but it well could lay with the processor. Let's assume FTP gave the processor $1M to pay depositors cash outs. The processor does not make the payment for whatever reason. Would this make the FTP customer waiting for the cash out a victim of the fraud as described in the complaint? I just don't think so. Clearly FTP was ultimately responsible and would be held liable if the processor did not perform. But, is this a part of the fraud? Not to me.

If you were an investment broker embezzling money from your customers that trusted you to hold it for them and were caught and they seized all of your money and decided to repay the victims of your embezzlement scheme via remissions with that money. Would I be able to claim my loss of $5000 for the diamond ring as part of your scheme to embezzle your clients money. I don't think so. Could I still sue for the wrong you did me? You betcha, but the two wrongs are not related.

To those of you who believe that they should get points/medals as part of the DOJ remissions claim:


How do you plan on valuating your points and medals?


My problem with those who feel that they are entitled to some form of compensation of those things is that there isnt a standardized value conversion system for any of those bonuses or rewards. Just because they traded at a certain value in the market means nothing because they were never traded as real $$. They were tickets, medals, and points; never real $.

One of the first things you learn in law school is: You only get what you ask for.

Anyone who fails to file a claim for a legitimate loss based on the amateur legal advice posted in this thread will be making a huge mistake.

But there is nothing to do right now, correct? Can mods guarantee a NEW THREAD will be made when people are actually supposed do proactively do anything?

+1
The medals/points still exist in player's accounts on FTP2. We just can't access them until poker is legislated in US or we move somewhere overseas where it is.

Idk but the $150 million owed to American players included points and medals. I would be willing to use whatever formula they used.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...houldn-t-worry

Thread needs some more cat .gifs...

I called the PR line twice with a bunch of questions and I requested to speak to someone with specific knowledge about FTP. 3 weeks later, Jamie called me about an hour before the announcement on Friday. FWIW, her title is Project Manager.

do you think it would be possible to receive the lump sum portion of our balances at one time and then the disputed amount in another? My balance is going to say 70K, but there are 12k in 2k check increments that were either never received or bounced. I have 2 of the checks in hand that the bank would not take. 3 were never received. I was hoping to get the 70k right away and then dispute the remaining 12k.

No, you get one chance to request your full amount owed. From the experts ITT, it shouldn't have a significant affect on the processing time.

That would be nice. It would also seem fair. But nice and fair are not government regulations. It would be highly unusual ("unprecedented" as 1938ford might say) for any type of partial payment to be issued.

But, as gioco might say, it can't hurt to ask - the worst that could happen is they say no to your request.

Also, it is doubtful that you would be talking about a significant time difference. They are not going to pay anyone until they at least have a full and clear understanding of where they are at and what they need to do. This will most likely mean that they pay no one until they have resolved all the disputed claims; AT BEST it will mean that they start paying undisputed and settled claims a little before formally and finally resolving all disputed claims.

Skallagrim

Is it possible the balances FTP sent to GCG are already reconciled for failed withdrawal attempts, RB and other differences? Is it also possible the final balance information that will be emailed to us in Sept are already approved to be paid immediately if there is no dispute? I'm trying to be optimistic.

In other contexts I would concede your point, but in this context I doubt GCG/DOJ will view it in such a limited and technical fashion.

It is important to remember that remission, despite all its rules and regulations, is still fundamentally an equitable remedy. Its stated goal is to insure that victims are compensated as fully as possible.

Also, this is a case that was resolved by settlement rather than formal litigation. As such, the Fraud FTP committed is still rather unspecific. The complaint merely alleged that FTP promised players their money was "safe" and then knowingly failed to live up to that promise. As a result players did not get the money that was theirs.

In light of both of those factors I doubt (and here I have to emphasize "doubt" because none of this is written in stone) that GCG/DOJ will say to a victim: "well you could have cashed that check and maybe it would have been honored (maybe not) but since we will never know if that check would be one not honored because of FTP's fraud, we wont pay you despite having the money to pay you and despite it being clear you never got the money."

The unfairness of that would be obvious to even DOJ officials.

As an aside, what is really sad is that we sit here before our computers and easily accept the possibility that the government could, because of technical and bureaucratic reasons, quite possibly produce such an obviously unfair result.

Skallagrim

It is possible.

And I am certain that at least some of that information is in the hands of GCG/DOJ. I am also reasonably certain that some relevant information is not in their hands.

But we won't really know how much will be reflected in the GCG/DOJ initial determination of remission payments until we get those September emails.

Skallagrim

OOPS - I missed the part about wishing to be paid IMMEDIATELY if there is no dispute. That is not going to happen. Down the road non-dipsuted claims MAY POSSIBLY get to the front of the line, or they may not (as has been extensively discussed above - and the difference between being at the front of the line or the back of the line is not likely to be large).

Your edit is unlikely to be true. DOJ is not going to re-examine the same point for every claim. They either already have decided, or someday will decide, whether compensation for points and medals and such will be included. And they will apply that one decision to every person who makes a claim based on points and medals and such.

If they decide not to compensate for points, end of story.

If they decide to compensate for points, there will be a standard formula for conversion to cash value. This has been done before in certain contexts, the most well-known context being what you mentioned: Frequent Flyer Miles. FFM's are obviously worth something and have a clear value. In many cases people have been compensated for losing them. In other cases they have not. What will happen in this case will be something the DOJ has to tell us, sooner or later.

Skallagrim

Sorry, by immediately I mean like 3 months or so after the claim deadline.

Actually, as I discussed above, they are most like frequent flyer miles. They were not cash, but they were something you could readily convert into something that has cash value.

You really are living up to your avatar these days.

Since remission is totally under control of the DOJ it is theoretically possible that they construct the process so that anyone who has the balls to disagree with the DOJ assessment of the amount of the claim and is shown to be wrong in their disagreement then gets paid nothing, not even what the DOJ originally said they are entitled to, as a result.

But even the DOJ is unlikely to be that cruel.

Skallagrim

it's still going to be a long road guys, but at least there is noticeable progress now.

I agree. As I stated in the previous post it is possible the DOJ will take more lenient view of the situation rather than interpret it on a strictly legal basis. This is one part of the remissions process that having the DOJ in control with essentially no oversight enures to the benefit of the victims. The DOJ can do what is right, and in doing so may not be limited by the vagaries and technicalities often associated with the law.

I do believe, however, the DOJ is going to be hamstrung by the information received from FTP, whatever it turns out to be. What I mean is how complete, or incomplete that information is will set the tone for what the DOJ considers player account balances as of April 15, 2013. I choose to believe, granted without much evidence to support that belief, that the account balances FTP gave to the DOJ will be fully reconciled and accurate for most former FTP customers. I have every hope that FTP, after BF, made appropriate adjustments to player accounts to reflect an accurate accounting for all activity, including reconciling cash outs that did or did not occur, phantom deposits, games in progress, etc. Since FTP hoped to continue operations post BF I believe they would have worked hard to clean up their books in preparing to renew operations.

And I agree with your second paragraph. It is unfortunate that we are not, as of yet, able to review what information GCG/DOJ actually has. I agree completely that this will be the base for what GCG/DOJ concludes a player is entitled to. So it will be up to the player to provide the proof if their reckoning of the amount they should be paid differs from what GCG/DOJ reckons. And that is why I have and continue to emphasize the importance of obtaining and maintaining all records concerning a players FTP account.

Skallagrim

For anyone else that was in the middle of clearing a bonus that they purchased: Did you see your points refunded?