This is my slant on things, also. FTP owners depleted a very profitable company. All subsequent troubles---DOJ, payment processors, AGCC---just uncovered the mismanagement/looting rot.

My bad. I worded it sloppily. I should have said something like "You can't be guilty of murder if nobody died." I was addressing the incorrect contention that you don't have to have a victim, no matter what the crime.

so basically we're not gonna get paid?

****.

I played on Tilt until the end I was playimg Rush whem they pulled the plug.

After BF the peak traffic was arond 110k amd it would drp off to 25k.

It was still the 2nd busiest site by a mile and it wS no problem finding games.

IMO they ran the promotions to try to generate enough cash to pay back the US players or to.at leazt minimoze fhe amojnt of additional cash they needed to raise.

If AGC hadnt pulled fhe plug they would have probably done this by now.

If they are unable to ropen its hard to see any of us getting our money back or any investor on board.

Im not arguing that AGCC did the wrong thing but the effect of their suspension has beem to f*** us over.

I would be happy to play on Tilt again and leave my cash on there untill they were in a position to firstly repay the USl.

We are all adults and knew the site was run by degen gamblers like most of us and I dont really need the AGCC to rell me what I can or cant do with my money. I never thought they gave me any protection anyway.

I don't know the answer to this question, but it brings up an important point:

The correct sales pitch to a prospective investor is "Hi, we're the corrupt and/or stupid former owners of this company. This company is in a ton of trouble because of our incredible greed and/or stupidity. If you are only mildly less corrupt and/or stupid than we were, the business will be quite successful." That's probably a bit of an awkward sales pitch to make, though...

Are you really arguing that a loss of 38% is significantly better than 50%? Even if Harry said 'roughly 50%' he wouldn't have been wrong. Your argument is ridiculous. This isn't a HUD, approximate numbers are ok sometimes.

You seem to just want to tarnish his credibility, and I am suspicious of your motivations. Anyone defending FTP at this juncture will find it difficult to be taken seriously on here - just look at genher and kevmode (I guarantee there are scammers reading their posts thinking of ways to scam their poor naive souls)

Harry may use hyperbole and emotion when addressing this issue, but that is definitely preferable over cover-ups and naive "cross-my-fingers-and-hope-to-god-my-poker-heroes-didn't-really-f**k-us-all-over" kind of way.

It is certainly preferable to 'insiders' trying to discredit the most passionate voices on the subject.

If it really was possible to get FTP back to 50% of the pre-BF profit, an investor would have stepped up by now. The projections just can't be that pretty.

People in a much more priveleged position than us with way more information than us (and with experience in, you know, investing) have decided that FTP is a poor investment. What does this tell you?

It tells me that it's a poor investment.

Only if it was the owners who cooked the books could the owners face charges.
that's what I thought, but the charges could be something else... deceiving a govenment offical, falsifyng financial statements...
No. If this is between the licensed companies and the AGCC, the UK is not involved. Alderney is not in the UK.

Don't confuse traffic with rake generated.

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but wasn't there supposed to be a second statement from FT this week?

Credibility? Learn to read sir. I am not sure if Harry is still talking because I had to ignore for tilt control, but he said FTP lost 75% from pre BF to 6/28 and that is just a lie that he can't let go proving he is all emotion, all bias, and little substance. I didn't make a claim one way or another about what it means, but simply that his claim that FTP lost 50% of it's player base TWICE, once on 4/15 and again from 4/15-6/28 is an outright lie as proven by pokerscout which shows they didn't even lose 50% total from pre BF let alone 50% twice over. I never said anything about whether FTP was a profitable investment, just that his numbers were so far off it was egregious. So either read with an objective mind or shhhh.

Sorry guys, maybe i'm missing something.. but i'm reading a lot of words without grasping the problem....
I'll try to simplify my thoughts.
FTP have (had) a license with AGCC, right? So AGCC have (had) to protect us.. In which ways did it??? Suspending the license???? (if there were problems with DOJ, AGCC had to suspend the license THE DAY AFTER BF...to "protect" us...)
What's the meaning to suspend license almost 3 MONTHS AFTER???

OK.. FTP owners did a lot of mistake.. and the DOJ will surely take care of them... BUT AGCC HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF US! Otherwise, what the hell is a commission that grants licenses???

So, IMO, we need investors who bring money, but we need likewise the license!! To generate rake, and the situation will be easier and in less time..

IMO the only way to have US players refunded is:
- have the license back
- ftp comes back online (with enough money from new investors to cover non-US BRs, with limited cash-out too, if it needs)
- it generates rake to repay US players in a reasonable amount of time

In this way a believe that also problems with DOJ will fade away.. (obviously, FTP will sign a deal not to operate in USA for years and years and years... even if laws will change...)

What's wrong in my argument??

Go back and READ and UNDERSTAND what I wrote.

I never said my numbers were defintievely correct but that they were a reasonable assumption guide and I stand by that (the figures as being reasonable).

Your accusing me of lying is unwarranted and YOU have LIED for your own personal reasons and not me.

Now grow up and apologize or crawl back under the rock from whence you came.

Anyone who accuses me of lying is never going to be allowed to do so unchallenged and I will defend my integrity and honour every time on this matter. I can be accused of making errors but never of lying.

If FTP was worth $1 billion pre BF I say they are only worth $125 million now

If I am wrong and their worth is between $80 million and $250 million then anyone thinking of investing has to be a fool to lay out $350 million +

And just for the record I have NEVER claimed NOT to be biased against FTP but have claimed to always present statements in an impartial way.

Where I have assumed figures or guestimated things I have always made this apparent in my comments but for some reason you (and a couple fo others here) seem to juts want confrontation for the sake of it.

Well thats fine too because it goes with the territory on the internet but if you are going to sling mud then expect a landslide back.

Now be a man and apologize or go back to your crib and sucking on your dummy to ensure your drivel comes out of the right orifice

He is arguing that a loss of 38% of total traffic is significantly better than a loss of 75% total traffic (50% us and 50% of remaining ROW players).

Its interesting to look into this as it can invalidate the claim that ftp was toasted and getting deserted by row players after BF and as a consequence has much less value for investor (who care about ROW players perception of ftp only).

As usual people tend to mix up fact and opinions when it suits them.


It doesnt look like a perfect proxy, but still a very good one.

BTW: we want LedaSon to keep posting his Ibanker analysis.

TBH it seems pretty clear to me that any investor would want to drop the US player liabilities as they are worth nothing to them except extra expense and headache.

Losing all the US players (50%) automatically on 15 April seriously damaged FTP's worth and they have defintiely lost some RoW players since then and closure and I would also say that of those remaining RoW players some will have left for other sites never to return.

If others are to be believed they reckon no RoW players were lost between 15 April and 29 June and that all those RoW players will miraculously instantaneously reappear at any FTP reopening.

Now how can these facts be disputed?

You can argue the percentages for each step or stage but doubt you will come up with anyhting outside the 10-20% player database being left if they reopen and thats nowhere near enough to justify a massive outlay for an investor.

But this horse has been flogged to death and is probably best left alone form here on in.

Those have not been disputed, they are common sense.

But you claim about the % are worth being discussed as they are of HIGH importance when it comes to evaluating the value of FTP, thats why people argue about those.

You cant really slander insideman using the subject and then unilaterally claim that the discussion of the figures is over when it suits you...

As an addition about the discussion on ftp value, the ability of a new FTP to operate on a futur US regulated market looked very compromised 4 month ago as most of us were speculating that the DOJ was trying to make an "example" and planning to "kill ftp".

Now it turn out that information from reliable people (NoahSD) tell us that the DOJ is concerned about the player fund situation and willing to make a deal to help those fund being recovered. I start to wonder how far the DOJ is/was willing to go ? Would they agree to settle everything with a new investor and guanrantee that they would not oppose to a come back from "new ftp" on a futur US regulated market ?

The answer to this question has a huge impact on ftp's value.

Did Pocket Kings do anything wrong? Can anybody be prosecuted for their part in Ireland?

don't think anyone is cheering for it, just hard to see it going any other way currently.

They won't get their licence back unless they can cover deposits.

The question of if they can change the US players funds to debt so they don't have to cover them to operate is interesting, however it seems unlikely the doj would allow any sort of settlement in that case.

I feel sort of dumb for asking this, 'cause I know there has been a lot of talk about this topic. But if someone could please tell me why the DoJ can't just go after the shareholders of FTP so that new, innocent investors don't have the civil lawsuit to worry about, and in turn, giving US players a much better opportunity to be repaid?

I would be more than happy to play on Full Tilt again should it repay all players and change management. In fact I would kind of think it would be the most reliable site in a way. I just can't fathom a new investor spending all this money just to rip players off like the current management has. However, as unlikely as it seems, if a deal succeeded that included US players being stiffed, ROW being repaid, and FTP reopening, I, and I imagine many others, would not be comfortable playing on a site that had ripped players off to the tune of ~$150m.

Cheers

bump?

Us players funds ARE a debt.. It cannot be used anymore to play, so they are just ("just"..maybe ironic...!) to refund.
So, it should be found just the best and the easiest way to do it. And what better than reopen and generate rake (together new investitors' money..) to repay US players?? Maybe DOJ could understand this too... and become more compliant..

Things seemed to change after Jeff Ifrah filed to withdraw from TT's CA lawsuit and stopped posting on 2p2

Huh? I totally missed that. Could you give a link, pls?