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Old 02-16-2014, 05:01 PM   #2026
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Originally Posted by KillTheCheaters View Post
the real question is how someone who could write something so void of intelligence could be put in a position to write an article like this at all
It is amazing but as the next poster said it's sadly not just refrained to the media as this is a problem throughout our industry.

Last edited by Sect7G; 02-16-2014 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 02-16-2014, 05:28 PM   #2027
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Don't know Edog, never met him. But assuming he's gotten over his disease and turned his life around then mad props to him.

\.
I did have a chance to meet both he and his wife not too long ago at a poker tournament at the Venetian in November. Played with Erick early on and then with his wife for quite some time. She FT'd and he stuck around and watched her the whole time. Based on the few conversations I had with both of them, it seemed very genuine that he was in the process of making the changes necessary to try and right the ship.

I don't excuse his actions, but I have certainly made my share of mistakes and things that I needed to make right. Granted the magnitude of my mistakes were not nearly as difficult to overcome given the dollar amounts associated with his. But, that doesn't make me any better. The point is that it seems to me that he has put the shovel down, which is the first step in trying to make things right. He has begun paying his debts back. If that continues, and he has truly changed, then he certainly gets a lot of respect from me.

I enjoyed meeting them both. I am curious to know how many people in this thread who are bad-mouthing him are actually owed money from him? If so, I think it is much more relevant how they feel about how he is CURRENTLY handling things.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:19 PM   #2028
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Does not compute. In my mind akin to saying " I don't hate xxx because he is an alcoholic, I just hate him cause he drinks all the time"

If you or others don't agree with the connection between his behavior and gambling compulsion , then this will be an endless and pointless debate.
Yes, I don't agree with it. I've known a couple people with gambling problems. Two of them have never tried to steal or borrow money from anyone that they couldn't repay and I consider one of them to be very trustworthy. They just got depressed and were broke and gambled away money that they earned.

The willingness to steal money from people and the desire to gamble away money are two separate things. I agree that a gambling problem can bring out the worst in people, but you should understand that there are plenty of people who would draw the line at the things they would do to other people.

It's like saying "That killer killed those people because he was racist." Sure, racism might have led to who he decided to kill, but I've known racist people who would never kill anyone. By trying to explain away the horrible things someone has done just because "they have a gambling problem" is an awfully simplistic way to look at things. The main point, I guess, is that what Lindgren has done is much worse than what other people with (probable) similar gambling problems has done and should be condemned harshly.

For Lee Davy to say he "respects" Lindgren is ridiculous. It'd be like me saying I "respect" the Columbine killers because I struggled with high school bullying. It's one thing to admit that someone who did something is seriously flawed and maybe worthy of pity and understanding; it's another thing entirely to say they should be "respected". Especially when we all know Lindgren only did the "noble" thing and confessed to a problem when he was forced to by his circumstances. It seems evident going public with his "gambling problem" story was the best strategy for him to avoid paying his debts, and most people realize that.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:24 PM   #2029
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Does not compute. In my mind akin to saying " I don't hate xxx because he is an alcoholic, I just hate him cause he drinks all the time"

If you or others don't agree with the connection between his behavior and gambling compulsion , then this will be an endless and pointless debate.

I thought it was a great article. Lee Davy is one of the best writers in the business. There, I said it. Flame away.

Don't know Edog, never met him. But assuming he's gotten over his disease and turned his life around then mad props to him. Seriously doubt he cares what judgmental randoms on an Internet forum think

EDIT: agree with the bobo on lumping of the whole industry not being logical .
Not really true but nice try. You can be a degen without scamming people. Years ago, I went broke when I was playing poker for a living. I had no money. The power was cut off to my apt. and I had nothing to eat but potatoes. I was on a downswing and I lost my last $100 in a poker game...I was a such a degen, I didn't buy food or pay bills, I used my last $100 for poker. I was in a really bad way...so what did I do? I didn't lie cheat or steal money. I got a ****ing job. That's right. I went to work for a while and didn't go back to poker until I had a bankroll. I have gone broke a few times and I've never borrowed money I couldn't pay back. I've also met lots of other degens over the years. People who live in their car because all their money goes on poker...but they don't lie, cheat and steal to get a buyin. I knew one guy who was such a degen that he had nothing and used to sleep in doorways. When he went broke, he used to go knock on doors and offer to clean their rain gutters for a few dollars...a day later he would show up again with a buyin...etc. etc. These people are degenerates but they aren't scamming anyone.
Erick Lindgren went broke and decided that the world owed him a living so he scammed people so he could stay in the game. There is a difference. The difference is that I and others paid the price for our degeneracy but Erick wants other people to pay the price for him.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:42 PM   #2030
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

just found this thread--odd i wasnt told of it before it reached 146 pages. wow--and of course--if i had that kind of money--id never ever go broke--so in one way i cant relate. havent scammed anyone--but i have asked for money before--but staking is common in poker.

didnt steal though--and if i had $10k at least once more before i die--id never go broke again at $1-2 NL. (or on video BJ either, now that i have greatly improved as far as picking machines with better odds and cashback). in fact, ive lived off the same $3000 or so for about 20 yrs. i dont have a lot of respect for high stakes players who scam--but i do have respect for those willing to admit their a sinner in need of repentance.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:54 PM   #2031
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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\

The power was cut off to my apt.

\
The issue I have with the kind of judgement that is thrown around in these instances is that nearly all (if not all) of us, have lied, cheated, stolen in some form or fashion if we really take the time to take 'magnitude' out of it. For instance, in your statement above, there must have been some period of time where you were literally stealing. You used power that you could not pay for. I am sure they sent you several bills of money you owed, and you did not pay them back for some period of time. But, somehow this is just fine and another kind of stealing is not.

I guess the question becomes, where do you draw the line? For me, I chose to recognize that, like me, others are far from perfect and have made mistakes. Some are very serious, and I don't condone stealing or scamming people by any means. But, that doesn't exclude someone from being able to make those wrongs right. If so, all of us would be in a world of hurt.

In the above example, I am sure you finally made good on your overdue bill once you were able. Now say I am one of those people that has never been late on any bill that I owed. Does that give me the right to vilify you for making electricity a little more expensive for everyone else while you are not able to pay? Or should I take a more reasonable approach, and say, hey, this guy isn't perfect. But he admitted he owed the money and is now doing everything he can to pay it back.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:03 PM   #2032
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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The issue I have with the kind of judgement that is thrown around in these instances is that nearly all (if not all) of us, have lied, cheated, stolen in some form or fashion if we really take the time to take 'magnitude' out of it. For instance, in your statement above, there must have been some period of time where you were literally stealing. You used power that you could not pay for. I am sure they sent you several bills of money you owed, and you did not pay them back for some period of time. But, somehow this is just fine and another kind of stealing is not.

I guess the question becomes, where do you draw the line? For me, I chose to recognize that, like me, others are far from perfect and have made mistakes. Some are very serious, and I don't condone stealing or scamming people by any means. But, that doesn't exclude someone from being able to make those wrongs right. If so, all of us would be in a world of hurt.

In the above example, I am sure you finally made good on your overdue bill once you were able. Now say I am one of those people that has never been late on any bill that I owed. Does that give me the right to vilify you for making electricity a little more expensive for everyone else while you are not able to pay? Or should I take a more reasonable approach, and say, hey, this guy isn't perfect. But he admitted he owed the money and is now doing everything he can to pay it back.

Just my 2 cents.
a lot of crappy people justify the things they do by fooling themselves into believing that everyone else is doing the same crappy things that they do, or would do them if they were in the same situation. whether you're willing to accept it or not, there is a tremendous difference between not being able to pay for power because you are broke and stealing money from people so you can gamble.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:14 PM   #2033
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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a lot of crappy people justify the things they do by fooling themselves into believing that everyone else is doing the same crappy things that they do, or would do them if they were in the same situation. whether you're willing to accept it or not, there is a tremendous difference between not being able to pay for power because you are broke and stealing money from people so you can gamble.
Maybe I wasn't clear, I am in no way trying to justify either action. Neither are commendable or respectable behavior. My point is simply this: we all make mistakes. On some level, we all tell lies, cheat to some extent, and have moments that we are not proud of. As it specifically relates to Erick Lindgren's actions, his were obviously deplorable. As best as I can tell though, he has stopped cheating people for money, stopped scamming people to feed a gambling addiction and has begun paying back significant portions of his debts. To continue to judge that person as a complete scumbag is wrong in my opinion. Was he a person that did some scummy things? Absolutely. Would I lend him money? Hell no. But do I respect the fact that he is seemingly doing everything in his power currently to make these things right? I do. I respect that quite a bit actually.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:48 PM   #2034
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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The issue I have with the kind of judgement that is thrown around in these instances is that nearly all (if not all) of us, have lied, cheated, stolen in some form or fashion if we really take the time to take 'magnitude' out of it. For instance, in your statement above, there must have been some period of time where you were literally stealing. You used power that you could not pay for. I am sure they sent you several bills of money you owed, and you did not pay them back for some period of time. But, somehow this is just fine and another kind of stealing is not.

I guess the question becomes, where do you draw the line? For me, I chose to recognize that, like me, others are far from perfect and have made mistakes. Some are very serious, and I don't condone stealing or scamming people by any means. But, that doesn't exclude someone from being able to make those wrongs right. If so, all of us would be in a world of hurt.

In the above example, I am sure you finally made good on your overdue bill once you were able. Now say I am one of those people that has never been late on any bill that I owed. Does that give me the right to vilify you for making electricity a little more expensive for everyone else while you are not able to pay? Or should I take a more reasonable approach, and say, hey, this guy isn't perfect. But he admitted he owed the money and is now doing everything he can to pay it back.

Just my 2 cents.
I see what you're saying there but I wouldn't call an overdue electric bill stealing. What they do is charge you what you owe + a small percentage for being overdue + a re-hookup charge so you end up paying a penalty for being late similar to a credit card.
Owing a power company a couple hundred dollars because I fell on hard times is a far cry from making bets with various bookies with money I don't even have and constantly lying to people about paying them back and wasting their time etc. instead of just being honest with them.
Also, I don't "hate" Erick Lindgren. But I have become very jaded now with these so-called pros who are falling off their high horses one by one as scam after scam is revealed. This is all happening at a time where poker players are trying to have poker recognized as a legitimate honest endeavor so I have very little sympathy for the scammers in light of that.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:55 PM   #2035
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

there should be a disclaimer before you read something like that.

so poorly written on top of just being plain retarded.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:28 PM   #2036
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Does not compute. In my mind akin to saying " I don't hate xxx because he is an alcoholic, I just hate him cause he drinks all the time"

If you or others don't agree with the connection between his behavior and gambling compulsion , then this will be an endless and pointless debate.

I thought it was a great article. Lee Davy is one of the best writers in the business. There, I said it. Flame away.

Don't know Edog, never met him. But assuming he's gotten over his disease and turned his life around then mad props to him. Seriously doubt he cares what judgmental randoms on an Internet forum think

EDIT: agree with the bobo on lumping of the whole industry not being logical .

Sup Lee Davy.

'Edog' is scum and should be in prison
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:36 PM   #2037
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

I realize this is a massive thread, so forgive me for not reading every page...

but has DN ever addressed his blind man-love for E-Dog ?

He has no business calling out other seedy characters in the poker world until he talks openly about EL

I like Daniel. always have. But I don't like the fact he refuses to even discuss this topic
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:47 PM   #2038
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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I realize this is a massive thread, so forgive me for not reading every page...

but has DN ever addressed his blind man-love for E-Dog ?

He has no business calling out other seedy characters in the poker world until he talks openly about EL

I like Daniel. always have. But I don't like the fact he refuses to even discuss this topic
Lindgren introduced DN to the miracle of acai berries and peanut butter that he's using to regrow his hair, it's forged a strong loyalty.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:47 PM   #2039
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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I realize this is a massive thread, so forgive me for not reading every page...

but has DN ever addressed his blind man-love for E-Dog ?

He has no business calling out other seedy characters in the poker world until he talks openly about EL

I like Daniel. always have. But I don't like the fact he refuses to even discuss this topic
DN briefly responded to a question regarding this topic in his 'Vision for Poker' thread. It was brief but he did touch on it.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:53 PM   #2040
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

Here is what DNegs posted about the Erick Lindgrean question in his thread:

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I have touched on the issue several times over the year, but in a nutshell, while I don't condone gambling and not paying debts, or borrowing or not paying, I've also been a part of the gambling world for over 20 years now and I've dealt first hand over the years with people who have made mistakes. Really big mistakes. Gambling can be a real addiction, much like alcohol or drugs. The decisions people make when "under the influence" aren't always indicative of the character of the person. Sometimes good people do really bad things.

As I said, I've both dealt with, and been on the side of the fence when I owed money I didn't have, so that tends to make me compassionate towards people who ruin their lives with debt. Mind you, I obviously feel compassion for the victims, as I've been a victim many times over. Having said that, I don't play victim to it. When I chose to loan someone money and they didn't pay, that's something I need to take responsibility for. When I trusted someone enough to risk gambling with them on credit and they didn't pay, I need to take responsibility for that decision as well. Does that mean I have to like getting screwed over? No. Does that mean the person who didn't pay me is justified in what they did because it was my responsibility to decide if I trust them or not? No.

I don't see any value in being a victim to it. Instead, I choose to learn from those situations and hopefully make better financial decisions in the future.

I'm not sure if that answers your question or not, but it's the honest truth about how I feel about the issue of welching.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:03 AM   #2041
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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I see what you're saying there but I wouldn't call an overdue electric bill stealing. What they do is charge you what you owe + a small percentage for being overdue + a re-hookup charge so you end up paying a penalty for being late similar to a credit card.
Owing a power company a couple hundred dollars because I fell on hard times is a far cry from making bets with various bookies with money I don't even have and constantly lying to people about paying them back and wasting their time etc. instead of just being honest with them.
Also, I don't "hate" Erick Lindgren. But I have become very jaded now with these so-called pros who are falling off their high horses one by one as scam after scam is revealed. This is all happening at a time where poker players are trying to have poker recognized as a legitimate honest endeavor so I have very little sympathy for the scammers in light of that.
You also scammed whoever you were renting your place from. It probably wasn't pleasant for your landlord to be expecting a check under the assumption you will pay. How do you know he didn't really need the income from your rent?

A degen is a degen. When I used to play Brick and Mortar I saw them all the time.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:07 AM   #2042
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Wow. I've read a couple of Lee Davy's articles before. Horrible stuff. What a joke.
He seems to have gotten into poker writing so that he can run down those who play the game. Something he apparently did poorly...

http://www.thehendonmob.com/lee_davy/broke_living
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:18 AM   #2043
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Lindgren introduced DN to the miracle of acai berries and peanut butter that he's using to regrow his hair, it's forged a strong loyalty.

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Old 02-17-2014, 12:33 AM   #2044
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

So being a scum bag degen is a now 'disease'? lol. I hope its not too contagious, might go to my docs and get a vaccination shot just to be safe.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:34 AM   #2045
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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You also scammed whoever you were renting your place from. It probably wasn't pleasant for your landlord to be expecting a check under the assumption you will pay. How do you know he didn't really need the income from your rent?

A degen is a degen. When I used to play Brick and Mortar I saw them all the time.
WTF are you babbling about? I never scammed the landlord.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:53 AM   #2046
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

i know some ppl who are addicted to sports betting and other forms of gambling. definitely addicted or at least they have a very tough time controlling it.

those ppl might hurt themselves in the process and occasionally lose money they can't afford to lose. that's pretty bad, but i don't think it's scummy.

gambling money you can't afford to lose or worse, you can't even pay if you lose, it's just straight scummy. total scumbag move. and lying about it, then continuing to do it in order to get out of the hole... this ****ing guy ADMIRES lindgren?

does he not realize this guy was going to keep doing this until the end of time unless someone called him out for it? and those in here doing so are hypocrites? **** him. lol. seriously, **** that guy, and i'm really sick of anyone trying to defend lindgren. i can't take any apology from him sincerely given how much of a dick he's acted since it all came out and how much he's acted like a high school tough guy to ppl who called him out for it.

if he had just come out and said it was all right and been more sincere when it came out, i don't think the backlash would have been this bad. more people would be willing to forgive him, for sure. he just had to act like a total ******* instead.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:15 AM   #2047
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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i know some ppl who are addicted to sports betting and other forms of gambling. definitely addicted or at least they have a very tough time controlling it.

those ppl might hurt themselves in the process and occasionally lose money they can't afford to lose. that's pretty bad, but i don't think it's scummy.

gambling money you can't afford to lose or worse, you can't even pay if you lose, it's just straight scummy. total scumbag move. and lying about it, then continuing to do it in order to get out of the hole... this ****ing guy ADMIRES lindgren?

does he not realize this guy was going to keep doing this until the end of time unless someone called him out for it? and those in here doing so are hypocrites? **** him. lol. seriously, **** that guy, and i'm really sick of anyone trying to defend lindgren. i can't take any apology from him sincerely given how much of a dick he's acted since it all came out and how much he's acted like a high school tough guy to ppl who called him out for it.

if he had just come out and said it was all right and been more sincere when it came out, i don't think the backlash would have been this bad. more people would be willing to forgive him, for sure. he just had to act like a total ******* instead.
yeah it's crazy to me that people are like, "he made some big mistakes that he's owned up to and is trying to fix and we need to respect that." wait a second, he didn't initially come out and say, "hey guys, here's the situation, here's what i've done, here's what i have to do to fix it." he was CAUGHT by the people he was scamming, exposed, and when he had no other choice he admitted what had happened and tried to find the cleanest way out. and for those who claim respect for how he's handled the situation, what do you say to a guy like haralabob who Erick has essentially said will not be paid back under any circumstance? is that respectable? were his wife's twitter comments ("i just sent him out to buy lotto tickets") respectable? to me, they deserve nothing but grief. you reap what you sow.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:32 AM   #2048
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

also, to those saying Erick needs to be treated with empathy and compassion because he has a "disease" that he has no control over, I ask you this: Do you find great injustice in the treatment of pedophiles?

to have a compulsion or "disease" is one thing, when other people become the victims of your compulsion it's a whole different story.
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:51 PM   #2049
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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Does not compute. In my mind akin to saying " I don't hate xxx because he is an alcoholic, I just hate him cause he drinks all the time"
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Old 02-17-2014, 01:54 PM   #2050
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Re: Erick Lindgren Owes Over $100,000 for Fantasy League, Won't Pay

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also, to those saying Erick needs to be treated with empathy and compassion because he has a "disease" that he has no control over, I ask you this: Do you find great injustice in the treatment of pedophiles?

to have a compulsion or "disease" is one thing, when other people become the victims of your compulsion it's a whole different story.
Yeah, I'm not sure what people's point is when they say that he is "human" and "fallible" etc. Obviously there are reasons for everything people do, whether we can figure them out or not. Pedophiles have biological/mental factors for their tendencies. Murderers are usually imbalanced in some way. I myself don't believe in free will because I believe everything that happens depends on a previous state; this means that I don't actually have any passionate animosity towards anyone.

Regardless of this, the point of judging people and punishing them is to prevent further people from being hurt. It's not like people are arguing we need to punish people for punishment's sake (well, maybe some people do). The point of singling out people as morally flawed and "scumbags" isn't just to cast judgment on them; it's also to mark them as perhaps unworthy of future trust and responsibility, so that other people won't be harmed, and to perhaps require them to "make right" their past transgressions to past victims. Also, punishing people makes it less desirable for other people to engage in those same actions. These are practical, real-world reasons for punishment, not wishy-washy philosophical reasons for moral judgment.

In other words, the point of harshly judging Lindgren (and saying that "respecting" him is a ridiculous point of view) isn't some meaningless personal moral activity. It's to point out that people who do bad things should have to make up for them in some way and should be punished. It's not a needless activity of just morally judging someone; it has real consequences in the real world.

Sure, I understand that Lindgren (and everyone who does something horrible) has issues and underlying causes. I don't hate him and understand that there are underlying reasons for everyone's actions. I still think he should be held responsible for his actions and judged harshly for his actions because that stance leads to a better-functioning society.
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