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EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts

08-24-2016 , 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK
Even with the effort to payout more places with a smaller mincash, the payout jumps in this structure have little logic.

The pay-out bump between 695th and 696th place is the largest bump until the pay-out bump between 39th and 40th. This first bump is $1100, while the bumps from 500th to 120th are all less than $200.

Every increase should be larger than the last. But somehow no one can get this right.
I don't disagree. I rarely pay attention to payout bump % though; does no one do this?
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-24-2016 , 07:50 AM
If I know that there is a $500 payjump for the next knockout and I have an all in hand, I will stall for a couple minutes before shoving. Seems like any logical player would do the same.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-24-2016 , 08:24 AM
I've just seen that Stars sponsored 2 high profile Hearthstone players/streamers into EPT Barcelona ME (Savjz and Sjow for those interested), might be a first actually great move in a long time. Contrary to popular belief in these forums, I think that twitch/gaming crowd is a future of poker.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-24-2016 , 11:42 AM
5.6k Min cash for EPT Barca this year..

Guess it kind of had to be like this in order for their to be the 1m+ up top.

Thing is, they expanded the payouts in all likelihood to please recreationals but making 300 dollars in a 5k, idk man :/

Interested to hear your thoughts.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-24-2016 , 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labax
5.6k Min cash for EPT Barca this year..

Guess it kind of had to be like this in order for their to be the 1m+ up top.

Thing is, they expanded the payouts in all likelihood to please recreationals but making 300 dollars in a 5k, idk man :/

Interested to hear your thoughts.
I don't really understand this sort of thinking. For the people who finish in the 15-20% range, they are now making $5600 more than they would have otherwise. How can they be upset by this change? The buy-in is a sunk cost.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-24-2016 , 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK
I don't really understand this sort of thinking. For the people who finish in the 15-20% range, they are now making $5600 more than they would have otherwise. How can they be upset by this change? The buy-in is a sunk cost.
+1

i guess alot of the regs who complain about the 1.1 min cash are bad at the maths.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-26-2016 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMPK
I don't really understand this sort of thinking. For the people who finish in the 15-20% range, they are now making $5600 more than they would have otherwise. How can they be upset by this change? The buy-in is a sunk cost.
You're acting like these extra spots that are being paid out didn't come directly out of money paid to higher spots. I don't think it matters as much here as it would for a smaller buyin, as the 5k is a big buyin for most of the players entering, but if a 10$ online mtt with 1785 entries paid 20% and had 2100$ for first it'd be pretty silly. This payout structure is a big step flatter than the already flat payouts online that everyone's been complaining so much about. First would be about 1.4M with those payouts, and every consecutive place would get more as well. It just makes it harder to have a healthy EV with all the travelcosts etc, but I suppose that's the point. I did have a starting table with 7 clearly non-professional players so if this payout played a significant role in that then it's fine.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-26-2016 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soepgroente
You're acting like these extra spots that are being paid out didn't come directly out of money paid to higher spots. I don't think it matters as much here as it would for a smaller buyin, as the 5k is a big buyin for most of the players entering, but if a 10$ online mtt with 1785 entries paid 20% and had 2100$ for first it'd be pretty silly. This payout structure is a big step flatter than the already flat payouts online that everyone's been complaining so much about. First would be about 1.4M with those payouts, and every consecutive place would get more as well. It just makes it harder to have a healthy EV with all the travelcosts etc, but I suppose that's the point. I did have a starting table with 7 clearly non-professional players so if this payout played a significant role in that then it's fine.
FWIW, I think my ideal payout structure would involve paying about the top 20%, but the 15-20% range would be paid significantly -less- than they buy-in. This really wouldn't take much off the other prizes at all.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
08-28-2016 , 05:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpnrun
Some people play poker for fun and just think it's nice when they don't lose too much , as pathetic as that may sound.
That's true but they'd be ill advised to enter EPT tournaments with 4 and 5-figure buy ins at all.
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08-28-2016 , 02:35 PM
All live stars events now have 2 bubbles. The refund and the actual cash, for Barca they paid 100 people the refund so thats €560000 gone from the business end of the tournament. Don't even mind paying 20% tbh as im just a meh reg by EPT standards and this is hurting the fedors of the world alot more than me.

But having a €3k payjump as the first ladder which u need to outlast over 25% of the remaining field to make is just ******ed. The ladder after that one was €300 and went normally from there. Pay 20% if you must and make it a normal payout ffs.
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08-29-2016 , 05:21 AM
Here are two alternative suggestions to the ETP 20% payouts. In Alt A. I made the min cash be 1.25x for the first 5%, then 1.5x at the 15% mark and go up normal amounts from there. I made 1st a bit flatter as well.

In Alt B, I kept 1st the same, and the bottom two pay groups the same. Important to keep ratios declining from top to bottom. EPT had lots of red ratio violations. I am okay with violating this "rule" for the bottom pay group only.

EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
09-01-2016 , 02:22 PM
Hello, dear poker community and lovers of the game around the world.

After the recent changes in the distribution of the prize pools, tournament structures and whole EPT festival schedule occurred, I have decided that the way the organizers (Amaya/PokerStars) are trying to push the whole game and industry is pretty forbidding, sneaky and dark.
In my opinion the sports and competition sides of the game, its individuality and attractiveness are slowly effaced. The offered variations of poker are much more approaching some kind of casino game or a lottery in which the player has chances close to zero winning in the long run.
Important thing to consider is that these methods and policies might have been borrowed from other companies as well.
That’s why with the help of little common sense, mathematics, psychology and business practices I will try to present my point of view regarding what Amaya is doing to the industry with the new changes and policies. How and why they might affect negative, not only to professional poker players, but to everybody enjoying the game and the industry in general. Hopefully after I expose more facts and examples everybody will have a moment with him/herself and strengthened his/her negative first impression about how abominable and nasty the changes are.
I believe the recent events and announcements have been a breaking point and we as a community have to take care of the game we love and keep its authenticity, originality and beauty!

I will jump straight into the explanations and examples, so I can clear, brighten and explain to more people why these policies are not good in general for the game.
What were the key changes made before the start of the last EPT Season 13?
- The prize pools pay not as usual 15%, but 20 to 23%. The prize for the places between 15% and 20 to 23% is around 1.1 the original buy-in!
- Early levels of the tournament structures were removed and the antes were increased.
- A policy which actually entered season 12 of EPT, but have been boosted for every single new stop is that the ratio of Turbo, Hyper Turbo and Super Hyper Turbo to Normal NL events it’s something like 3 to 1.

Let’s take for example this and last year payouts from Barcelona.

2015 2016
1694p - Total prize pool - 8,215,900 1785p – Total prize pool - 8,657,250

FT – 4,189,080 FT – 4,063,150
1-3. 2,774,500 1-3. 2,576,150
4. 405,000 4. 535,100
7. 194,100 7. 230,000
9. 104,000 9. 123,450
10. 87,750 10. 98,350
15. 70,050 15. 69,170
20. 53,000 20. 49,000
25. 37,000 25. 33,000
35. 27,000 35. 21,300
70. 18,300 70. 15,400
247. 8,800 247. 8,600
247-360. 0 247-360. 5,600

If we make a dissection of the prize pool from this year and compare it to the old one we can see few things.
- Top three prizes have been reduced
- All places after 15th are getting smaller prize with larger field.
- All these places are getting with around a buy-in less.
- Around 7% from the whole prize pool are needed for the additional prizes.

From a psychological and marketing perspective the top three places are still huge and are giving hopes to all the players visiting the festival and give them a reason to play. Everybody wants to become a millionaire. Basically everybody else who makes it into the money will get a prize that is much smaller that it’s supposed to be. For example 35th place in 2015 is paying 27,000 and 2016 – 21,300 and that’s with 100 more players larger field!
This way people will receive a prize which will be not big enough to give them some kind of satisfaction and make them happy, but makes them feel sorry how they went so close to the million, but received just 2-3 times more what they paid to participate. I believe, that this group of people will be much more vulnerable, after they take their payouts and realize they are actually break even for the whole trip or have won just enough to cover their travel, accommodation and food expenses. They might decide to leave the location right away, but if they stay there are tournaments to be played and the money is there.
Almost nobody cares about the prize distribution from 10th place to the last payout place, nobody is watching these prizes, if you finish 25th from 1,800 participants, you are not being interviewed and nobody cares if you took 3, 4, 5, 6 or 10 times the buy-in. So they can manipulate with these prizes as much as they want.
What about the players that just took their money back? Every kind of gambling is giving you at least 1.5x your bet. I mean sports betting, roulette, blackjack, baccarat, all variations of coin flips. One of the main reasons for this is that no matter if you win or lose your levels of dopamine, serotonin, cortisol and all the hormones responsible for your adrenaline and addiction levels will raise and you will want to play more or stop. Well, if you bet and receive your money back after it, you will perceive that nothing happened and simply repeat the bet, but with poker things work a bit differently.
When you go to a festival like EPT you hope to have pleasant time, have fun and then you know you can win some, lose some, maybe win big, maybe lose everything you came with?!

Why the larger field tournaments started at 10a.m.? No, the idea wasn’t because they want you to go bed earlier and not play until midnight. The idea is to simply have more time for more tournaments. That’s why they have a tournament starting anytime of the day 10:00, 12:00, 16:00, 18:00, 20:00, 22:00. They want you to be at the casino all day, go sleep and come back. Whenever you bust into the money of a tournament and received back the buy-in, so you can register something else right away.
But what does the schedule of the festival offers you?

From 64 events in 14 days you have around 30 Turbos and Hyper Turbos, 10 Satellites with normal structure which are pretty turbo anyways, 10 non Holdem events, 4-5 High rollers and Super High rollers, event for women, event for seniors, some PLO events and around 7-8 normal No Limit Holdem events which are actually the most liked and played form of tournament poker by the whole population - recreational/gamblers/pros/fans of the game and so on. So whenever you bust from a tournament in the money the chances to jump into the hyper turbo that stars after dinner are pretty big. Simply not much else to play and you’re there anyways – you came to play. The problem is that all these Turbos, Hyper Turbos, Super Hyper Turbos, Turbo Satellites are having the same rake as a regular tournament.
Well not exactly the same, if the tournament has buy-in higher than 2000, they reduce the rake from 10% to 7.5%. As higher the buy-in is, as lower the rake is. But it’s like that anyways. Regarding 1000 tournaments, it doesn’t matter if they have normal, turbo or hyper turbo structure, they always have 100 fee and 3% for staff. And these are the most played tournaments.

Why the ante was increased from 10% of the BB to 18% of BB and why 100/200 with no ante was removed? Well, reason here is pretty simple – people will bust quicker as the game becomes much more aggressive and short. I have a perfect example for it and here it is:

2015 - Day 2 of the 2015 European Poker Tour €5,300 Main Event is done and dusted. After just about 1,000 players returned for action the field was steadily cut down to 343. Finishing atop the survivors was a familiar face as Nick Petrangelo bagged up 570,000.

2016 - Day 2 of the record-breaking 2016 PokerStars.es EPT Season 13 Barcelona €5,300 Main Event saw more than 900 players return to tables at the Casino Barcelona and another 28 hopefuls opted to buy-in with a fresh stack of 30 big blinds.

Another issue with the 20%+ payouts is actually the bubble play and stalling. What happened on the Estrella High Roller was more than revealing. With 1,100 players starting the event and 240 in the money people started stalling from 350 left. Well, the tournament directors were hearing complaints from the whole room and decided to put the hand-for-hand play with 246 players left. The whole bubble process continued for an hour and 20 minutes and during that time we made no more than 12-14 hands. I told to the main tournament director that this is a joke and when they have such a huge fields and bubbles, they should pause the clock every 2-3 minutes for a hand. He told me that the average hand is 5 minutes. After that sentence, I received a quick flashback about the Hyper Turbo and Turbo tournaments, which gives you the opportunity to play 2 or 3 average hands per level, since they have 10 and 15 minute levels. Anyways we started the bubble with level of 1500/3000 and average stack of 40bbs, when we finished, it was 2500/5000 with average of 24bbs and just 5-6 players were out. Well that’s an issue for me.

A lot of you might say “the money back prize actually should save time on bubble, because nobody is really concern about the small prize”, but I don’t think that this is exactly accurate. Truth is nobody wants to lose. So when it comes to prizes, everybody wants to get in. That’s just another unconsidered side effect of 20%+ payouts.

Well, if you collect all of the upper changes and how they effect to the game, it’s pretty clear to me that the future policies of Amaya regarding poker are:
- To approach the form on No Limit Tournament poker experience as much as possible to a game with a lottery character.
- Raking more the whole money turnover of a single festival by offering us to play push or fold poker.
- Pretending they do a lot for the industry by bringing more players from spin’n’goes, freerolls and so on, but actually not giving bigger prizes to anybody, expect 5-6 spots at the final table.
- Not investing in better overall poker experience, but trying to make profit from side activities: 11 euro hot-dogs, crappy chairs, huge waiting lines for everything, same old small rooms with more and more tables.

Scary thing here is that Pokerstars has always been and still is the most innovating, business analytic, investing in different forms of human know-how, acquiring software companies, spending huge budgets on various forms of marketing company in the industry.
Unfortunately their competitors can easily see which business methods are gathering more profit and apply some of them into their new policies. For example EPT are offering Bounty and Turbo tournaments for at least 4-5 seasons and WSOP put their first Turbo and Bounty event in 2015. I’m not saying WSOP will go the same way, I’m sure they will not, because the game of poker is like a religion in the USA and has a strong community backgrounds. Unfortunately people are greedy and more money is always good - this is how to world works at the moment and anything is possible.

I just realized I almost missed something really important, which supports my point of view a lot
The 50k€ Super High Roller , would have been canceled, because all the high rollers announced via Twitter they will be not participating with 20-23% payout structure. Well , the Super High Rollers are really important from marketing considerations and growing the business. These are the tournaments with highest pressure, most drama, millions and millions of dollars or euros. They need a ton of cash and big balls to play. These are the tournaments where you can see all the best players around the world playing.
Well, Super High Roller players are 150-200 from around the world and most of them know each other, even are good friends. These people ain’t stupid guys. Just the opposite most of them are pretty smart and sharp people and that’s why they can afford to play a SHR.
All of them knew that this structure is not only bad for them, but it’s pretty bad for the industry. That’s why they have spoken their voices out loud. If there is no SHR this means Amaya really messed up everything. So Neil and others decided to put back the old 15% payout structure and the SHR began.
This is a classical example of how corporations and governments doesn’t care about the masses and take more and more from them, because they can. But whenever somebody important and valuable is speaking, they take care of him.

I don’t know about you people, but when and if I go to the next Pokerstars live event stop again, I would feel the same way like: taking a fast loan, buying cheddar cheese which there is no nutrition substances, going the long way with a taxi, being robbed at the main street of a big city, watching ads about losing weight supplements and so on.
I would feel cheated, I would feel robbed.
I believe that we as a community should make something to keep the authenticity, beauty and fun in the game, resist to the business models which are trying to kill the game and turn it into a casino game.
The first thing that comes to my mind is to completely boycott EPT Malta.
I’m pretty sure most of Bulgarian recreational and professional players will not go. The thing is that Bulgaria is a small country and wouldn’t affect as much as the bigger countries. I would be really thankful if somebody can translate these words in Italian and share it with the Italian community. I’m pretty sure if most of Italians have the facts in front of them they will definitely not like it and skip Malta. I said Italy, because usually this is the country with most participants in Malta.
Oh, well that’s pretty much everything from me.
Thank you for your attention and I apologize for my bad English grammar!
P.S. I know Pokerstars has done tremendous things in positive aspect for the industry and have leading role for the game being so popular nowadays. Unfortunately Amaya is not Pokerstars anymore.
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09-01-2016 , 03:50 PM
Yeah, amaya is the worst. I wish a billionaire who loved poker would buy Stars/EPT
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
09-01-2016 , 08:49 PM
Yeah it sucks, but just the same post we've seen a bunch. For lots of my friends it was when they removed SNE, for me it was when they decided to erase HU as a beatable format lower than 5/10.
Focus on things you can do, like supporting ACR who are reg friendly, or get excited about Galfond's new site.
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
09-02-2016 , 04:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimeonNaydenov
Hello, dear poker community and lovers of the game around the world.
Let’s take for example this and last year payouts from Barcelona.

2015 2016
1694p - Total prize pool - 8,215,900 1785p – Total prize pool - 8,657,250

FT – 4,189,080 FT – 4,063,150
1-3. 2,774,500 1-3. 2,576,150
4. 405,000 4. 535,100
7. 194,100 7. 230,000
9. 104,000 9. 123,450
10. 87,750 10. 98,350
15. 70,050 15. 69,170
20. 53,000 20. 49,000
25. 37,000 25. 33,000
35. 27,000 35. 21,300
70. 18,300 70. 15,400
247. 8,800 247. 8,600
247-360. 0 247-360. 5,600

If we make a dissection of the prize pool from this year and compare it to the old one we can see few things.
- Top three prizes have been reduced
- All places after 15th are getting smaller prize with larger field.
- All these places are getting with around a buy-in less.
- Around 7% from the whole prize pool are needed for the additional prizes.

From a psychological and marketing perspective the top three places are still huge and are giving hopes to all the players visiting the festival and give them a reason to play. Everybody wants to become a millionaire. Basically everybody else who makes it into the money will get a prize that is much smaller that it’s supposed to be.
Thank you for your feedback. If I understand you correctly, I think you feel that paying 20% of the field makes it more difficult for pros to make a living playing tournaments. This is true to some degree as it will lower a pros ROI, but not by as much as you think. The turbo blind structures that turn poker tournaments into crap shoots should be the major concern. Slower structures are much better for pros. The WSOP this year changed their blind structures as well and events played much faster this year than last year. I hope this does not become a new trend and that they consider going back to the old slower structures.

I have always felt paying 10% of the field was too small. I felt 12.5% to 15% was the best range. I feel 20% is actually too much. I also feel that the amount paid to 1st place in most tournaments is still way too much, but the EPT is now very close in line to where I think it should be. (when they paid 20% of field).

You mention stalling near the bubble and made it seem like it is only a problem in tournaments that pay 20% of the field. I think it will always exist to some degree no matter if 10%, 12.5% , 15% or 20% is paid. Do you think if they went round for round instead of hand for hand would be a better solution? Say 240 are paid. Instead of going hand for hand with 243 or so, go round for round with 250. Then after 9 completed hand, if 13 are busted, then all 13 share the prize money of 3 people and the bubble lasts about 45 minutes if it take 5 minutes for an average hand.

Based on last year EPT Barcelona, if you were a pro with a 38% ROI, then this year's 20% payouts would only reduce your ROI to about 36%. So I think you are overestimating the negative effect of 20% payouts.

Also, above you said everyone finishing 15th or lower gets a smaller prize than last year despite a bigger field. This is not true 114 players from 247-360 go from 0 to 5600. While a 1.1x min. cash seems small, it is still better than -5000. You can take a bad beat or be card dead and still limp into the money and go home with 1.1x and feel good that you at least did not come away with nothing. But on a personal level, I too think 15% is better than 20%.

Here is a post on this thread that I made about this event...
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=111

And here is post on ROI from another thread.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65...ghlight=redoak

The EPT Barcelona from last year is about equal to the power25 column, and this year it is power27. The chart is based a WSOP main event though with a 7319 player field. But the same conclusions can be drawn. Basically, even if you are a great player (80%ROI), if you fail to make a final table or top 18 ever, your ROI will be negative or very low. I suspect less than 5% of the 1700+ players in the EPT Barcelona have ROI's greater than 41%.

What percent of the field would you like to see finish in the money?
What do you think the min cash should be?

For me I think the ideal would be 15% paid with 1.5x min cash.
2nd choice would be 12.5% paid with 1.75x min cash.
3rd choice would be 20% paid with 1.25x min cash.
and 4th choice would be 10% paid with 2x min cash.

RedOak
EPT Events Expand to 20% payouts Quote
09-02-2016 , 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOak
Thank you for your feedback. If I understand you correctly, I think you feel that paying 20% of the field makes it more difficult for pros to make a living playing tournaments. This is true to some degree as it will lower a pros ROI, but not by as much as you think. The turbo blind structures that turn poker tournaments into crap shoots should be the major concern. Slower structures are much better for pros. The WSOP this year changed their blind structures as well and events played much faster this year than last year. I hope this does not become a new trend and that they consider going back to the old slower structures.
Hey, RedOak.

The major concern are not only the payouts, but all the changes and policies combined, which Amaya is trying to apply.
They are slowly turning the game into a lottery.
What is abhorring me is that they announced these changes like they really do something good for the game.
The truth is that all they aim is to rake more the same money turnover of a festival.
Save human labor by offering us tournaments , which lasts for 4-5 hours.
Trying to reduce the skills in the game so more and more people think they have chances to win and turn the game into something completely else.
What's more disturbing is that corporations are always greedy and want more and more so these policies might be applied at other companies poker festivals.
About bubbles there is a huge difference if we got 150 people at the bubble or 250 , which are stalling from 350 left. More people know that they are close to the money and more of them will try to slow down the game.

Your payout suggestions are really good. Just the purpose of 20% payouts is wrong for me. If the apply it to the Main events only , that's different thing. But when they apply it to 1000+100 turbo , re-entry. Well , that's bad.
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09-02-2016 , 11:21 AM
I'd personally prefer to see the top few spots take a scalping and to generally have larger and flatter payouts throughout.
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09-02-2016 , 11:23 AM
tried to skim, long and will read more later

so why do you feel this way
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