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Old 07-10-2014, 01:34 PM   #1
DesertCat
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Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

This was recently detailed on the High Stakes thread, but didn't see if there was a resolution & thought it deserved it's own thread.

Sometime in middle of June a rumor spread that Durr was playing against the HU poker machine with "The Corporation", a group of high stakes players from Bobbys Room cross-booking against him at $5,000/$10,000 stakes. Never heard details of bet, minimum hands, etc. But supposedly at some point Durr is up 400 big bets and the members of the corporation were starting to panic.

Anyone in the know care to talk about how the bet ended?

I'm also curious as to how it started.

It seems like a bad bet for both sides. First, it's a bad bet for Durr as there it's unlikely he's good enough at Limit Holdem to be +EV vs. the HU limit holdem machine (which seems to be good enough to beat solid limit holdem specialists). Secondly, if "The Corporation" freaked out after 400 bets they clearly were under-rolled, as 1,000 bet swings shouldn't be that unusual in HU limit holdem.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:31 PM   #2
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Pretty sure it was 1.5M he won. Also pretty sure that these machines have variable hold percentages like every other gaming machine which can be set by denomination, as I recall from discussions with someone who knew one of the developers. Basically, the perfect play of the bot just crushes bad players so you make it play a lot worse on the lowest denominations, or it's not fun for anyone. So, if he's playing on the lowest denomination, everyone's a huge dog to him. I could be wrong though, but that's how it was presented to me. I'm sure any slot director with one of these would know.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:04 PM   #3
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

I would definitely take the corporations side on this one.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:13 PM   #4
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Are any parts of the story confirmed? It sounds completely ridiculous, but who knows I guess.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:26 PM   #5
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Quote:
Originally Posted by tongni View Post
Pretty sure it was 1.5M he won. Also pretty sure that these machines have variable hold percentages like every other gaming machine which can be set by denomination, as I recall from discussions with someone who knew one of the developers. Basically, the perfect play of the bot just crushes bad players so you make it play a lot worse on the lowest denominations, or it's not fun for anyone. So, if he's playing on the lowest denomination, everyone's a huge dog to him. I could be wrong though, but that's how it was presented to me. I'm sure any slot director with one of these would know.
This seems to make sense. Altho I heard the number was a lot bigger than 1.5M.


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I would definitely take the corporations side on this one.
Gotta think there's more to it than Durr just suddenly becoming the best HU LHE player in the world...
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:46 PM   #6
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

I met a guy from Austria in Vegas who plays 100/200 for living a few years back who believed the bot was making mistakes.

But he said he was not sure.

Everyone else i met in Vegas playing these things did not seem to win.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tongni View Post
Pretty sure it was 1.5M he won. Also pretty sure that these machines have variable hold percentages like every other gaming machine which can be set by denomination, as I recall from discussions with someone who knew one of the developers. Basically, the perfect play of the bot just crushes bad players so you make it play a lot worse on the lowest denominations, or it's not fun for anyone. So, if he's playing on the lowest denomination, everyone's a huge dog to him. I could be wrong though, but that's how it was presented to me. I'm sure any slot director with one of these would know.
This is totally wrong. It's play a GTO strategy making it unbeatable but leaves money on the table against the worst players.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:36 PM   #8
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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This is totally wrong. It's play a GTO strategy making it unbeatable but leaves money on the table against the worst players.
and.... here we go
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:46 PM   #9
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Fun GTO blog: http://blog.gtorangebuilder.com
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Old 07-11-2014, 01:07 AM   #10
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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This is one of my favorite poker sites to read in my free time, and I don't even play anymore. I wish it had been around 4 years ago.
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Old 07-11-2014, 05:00 AM   #11
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Tom Dwan > Corporation , I was part of it ...

btw the bot doesnt play GTO
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Old 07-11-2014, 05:39 AM   #12
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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Tom Dwan > Corporation , I was part of it ...

btw the bot doesnt play GTO
Crazy.
Any other details? (Is the $1.5M figure accurate?)

How was the skill-level of this bot measured and how were you confident enough to bet on it over Tom?
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Old 07-11-2014, 06:33 AM   #13
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

I'm having deja vu here. Dwan playing vs the HU machine was detailed in another thread a few days ago. I don't rmb where I saw it, mb in the Macau thread.
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Old 07-11-2014, 06:40 AM   #14
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

People must feel cool saying the corporation. Lmao
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Old 07-11-2014, 07:31 AM   #15
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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and.... here we go
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/ma...anted=all&_r=0
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Old 07-11-2014, 07:45 AM   #16
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

this is a joke, right?
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Old 07-11-2014, 07:48 AM   #17
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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That was an absolutely @%&*@#$! fascinating article. Thank you! Neural nets, who knew.

Awesome that they had to spend a couple of years dumbing it down, and that the neural net is frozen so that it can't learn from the customers.
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:05 AM   #18
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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Tom Dwan > Corporation , I was part of it ...

btw the bot doesnt play GTO
Why are you gambling with someone who currently owes you 7 figures in equity?
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:14 AM   #19
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Maybe because he thought it would make him money?
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:35 AM   #20
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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Originally Posted by tongni View Post
Pretty sure it was 1.5M he won. Also pretty sure that these machines have variable hold percentages like every other gaming machine which can be set by denomination, as I recall from discussions with someone who knew one of the developers. Basically, the perfect play of the bot just crushes bad players so you make it play a lot worse on the lowest denominations, or it's not fun for anyone. So, if he's playing on the lowest denomination, everyone's a huge dog to him. I could be wrong though, but that's how it was presented to me. I'm sure any slot director with one of these would know.
If this is true, then pretty massive and impressive angle by Tom.

I do know, though, that in many jurisdictions, the gaming regs specifically say that the house edge / player odds / hold % for any real-money games MUST be identical to a play-money version of the same game. Otherwise, casinos could (and would) offer, for example, play-money version of Slot game XYZ that may even be +EV to the player, as an unethical way to entice player to deposit and play for real money (where house edge is materially higher).

Now whether that regulatory requirement extends to the lower-stakes vs. higher-stakes version of a game I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. e.g. I wouldn't at all be surprised that if a casino offered 1-cent Double-Diamond Slot Game, they'd be required to keep the same house edge for the $5 version of the same slot game.
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:49 AM   #21
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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Maybe because he thought it would make him money?
Doesn't matter how much durrrr ends up owing jungle on paper, if he never plans on paying up then it's not relative...
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Old 07-11-2014, 09:30 AM   #22
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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Old 07-11-2014, 09:40 AM   #23
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

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thanks... bookmared...
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:03 AM   #24
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

Durrr should honour his own challenge
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:25 AM   #25
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Re: Durr vs. HU machine & The Corporation

I'm up about $4k lifetime vs the machine but mostly just played it 2-4 years ago and I don't think it was as good then? Curious to try some more
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