I don't think Stu Ungar qualifies as an old gambler

This is a little off - poker - topic ....but one of my favorite axioms about getting old and having/not having money is :

"If a career politician who started with nothing and retires with a net worth less than $ 10,000,000, excluding the value of his home, he should be indicted, arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned for extreme gross incompetence."

Do old gamblers die broke? I think that MOST do. Keeping this theme limited to top level poker players I would think that most do die broke or at least have lost their bankroll and are grinding away at $2-4 limit and living one step up from being homeless.

The traits that allow players to rise to the top such as ego, no fear and a compulsive personality also prevent them from stepping down when their skills diminish. And such they play on until they are broke. And their compulsive nature allow them to make lifestyle risks such as drugs that further push them over the edge.

I think it was Chip Reese who said about Stu Ungar "Some people play to live and others live to play". Think about that. The players with life/interest/hobbies outside of poker/gambling seem to have money until the end and the others die broke.

In this thread some names are mentioned as broke or not broke. On the broke side mentioned were Stu, Sailor, Strauss and Bill Smith. All of they had very compulsive personalities and made bad lifestyle choices. All were degen gamblers and drug addicts. The live for today easy money lifestyle mindset took them to the top of poker but they could not shut it off and that mindset carried over to their personal life. Then you have guys like Moss whose ego wouldn't allow him to step down and play small until he lost it all. For 50 years he believed he was the best and he couldn't face the fact that he no longer was number one. Plus he had no interest outside of gambling to occupy his time. His whole life was wrapped up in his next bet. If he could have detached himself from that he could have had a great retirement and enjoyed his millions.

The guys who died with money all had a life outside the game. They invested in the markets, bought businesses and lived a normal home life complete with family trips, coaching little league, etc. Those guys "Played to live". To them poker was a job and did not consume their lives. For all Puggy's faults he was wise enough to put ego aside and step down while he still had millions and grind the mid-stakes. And he died with a lot of money. I think Ray Zee, although alive, is a great example. For 20 years he and Chip were one and two as the best all-around high stakes player in the world. But poker was a means to an end and he up and retired to a life of fishing and travel from his spread in Montana. He took his millions and ran. Same can be said about Roger Moore. He was at the top of the heap when he pulled up and left Vegas to build a golf course in Georgia. These guys however are an exception to the rule.

In Benny's oral history interview for the University of Nevada he say's the only player he ever knew who quit the game with money was Red Hodges who is in the Hall of Fame. Since then others have quit or died with money but they are far and few. Like I said in the first couple of paragraphs most die broke because of a compulsive personality, ego, lifestyle, etc..."Chicken today feathers tomorrow". It's easy to get broke when young but after years of up and downs it wears you out. And finally you never recover.

This is probably a pretty safe bet, but the book hasn't closed on it yet; Ray posted on his blog three days ago. And I'm fairly sure if he thought he was close to dying, he wouldn't be posting on his blog.

Regards, Lee
"He'd be out slaying trout somewhere"

/thread

A story about the go-for-broke gamblers mindset. Right after Archie Karras dropped all the money he won at craps, reported to be $40 million, I was playing in a $20-40 game with all the local pro grinders and we were talking about him. Most said that if they went on a roll like that they would have quit after losing half of it back. I said that none of us could have ever had a run like he did because at some point we would have pulled up and taken a small win instead of just betting it all like he did. The point was we were all just grinders and money had real value to us and our families. To Archie and others like him money had no value. They could wake up stone cold broke and have six figures in their pocket by the end of the day and be broke again in a day or two.

Yeah I think that sums it up, they woulnd't be rich at gambling without the same personality traits that can make them go broke.

wonder if Ivey will die broke.

If life equals gambling then of course they all die broke.

Poker is a zero-sum game, and negative when you include rake. If everybody kept playing poker long enough there would be no money left because eveything would go to rake. If players are taking money out of the poker economy, it just hastens this demise.

If the best players keep on playing, eventually there is another equal or better player that comes along so they bust to another player and/or rake. Anybody that does not bust is just getting out on the plus side due to variance by not running into the player(s) that would have busted them.

That's wrong about any poker game I know. The skillful players win and keep on winning year after year. Many of the regular losers own business places, it seems. I think the rake is worse now and a smaller percentage win in casinos. It is all skill, no luck, over the long run. Sure doesn't seem that way. I seem to be very lucky.

Many of the biggest gamblers loved to play and spent many more hours than normal gambling. Nick the Greek and Johnny Moss both were known for very long sessions. Both took the worst of it on horses and dice. The real pros aren't also suckers to leaks. You judge a gambler partially on leaks. Stu Ungar was a mystical gin and poker player but he was not a good gambler, and did not benefit from gambling. Many of the gamblers that died broke became suckers when they were old. As a senior, I don't play as high, and I doubt I am as good, but I don't really know that.

Col. Tom Parker, Elvis' manager, lost millions. He would shoot dice up to 14 hours a day. As I learned on here, he'd get up in the middle of the night and come down at the Hilton and shoot dice in his bathrobe and slippers. I cannot understand guys like him and Archie Karas. They are like heroin addicts.

Hey, Is the story of Parker owing money to a casino in Las Vegas from craps and having Elvis play a couple concerts at the casino to pay off the debt true or false?

He had to play the Hilton eight years. The Colonel owed them 30 million when Elvis died. When the Colonel died, his estate was only 1 million. I met Elvis and his manager when I was fifteen. Later, Bob Neal, Elvis' first manager, Bob Neal. became our booking agent when I managed Joe Ely. He was Pres of William Morris, Nashville.

Johnny talked about being big drunk when he shot at a guy. He must have been big drunk when he posted this.

Wanting an author to take greater care in his writing is not hate.

yea i am still alive. but as i get older i play smaller and more carefully. not just because of money but as you get older you lose some of the desire to win and the ability to play for long sessions.and money isnt important anymore. and there are always newer and smarter people coming in to the game which can turn the tables on you quickly if you let them.

and even the list above of living players that someone said would never go broke. five of them have that i know of. but not necessarily at present time.

u old timers sure are the last of ur kind. gl sirs

By the time I'm old the only poker players left will be robots.

This, watch out everyone.

Colonel Parker was even scummier than Chino Rheem, imo.

Parker died the next day in Las Vegas, Nevada at the age of 87. His death certificate listed his birthplace as Holland, but his citizenship as American. His funeral was held at the Hilton hotel, and was attended by friends and former associates. Priscilla attended to represent the Elvis Presley Estate, and gave a eulogy that, to many in the room, summed up Parker perfectly: "Elvis and the Colonel made history together, and the world is richer, better and far more interesting because of their collaboration. And now I need to locate my wallet, because I noticed there was no ticket booth on the way in here, but I'm sure that the Colonel must have arranged for some toll on the way out."

This.

This thread had more typos than usual. Maybe he was drunk? Either way, I like Johnny's monologues.

who cares abotu typos. stop being such nits, johnny is the man

chip reece is dead and i'm sure he wasnt broke

Amen. Ray certainly speaks for me. I won four of five days at the cash games at the World Series and have not played since. I'd rather read and research gambling history to write about it than play. I've got some more books coming from Amazon. Old folks have a lot of advantages. Me and Ray know we will never go broke.

most older gamblers I meet , dont have a clue about computers much less forums.... I gotta say, U guys are very smart. much respect sir